Tony-OH

Young is #30, and 11 on his list.

If either Urias and Mateo get over 350 plate appearances next year, something went wrong.

100% he should be available if that type of deal comes up, but I have hard time thinking any team out there would look at him as an everyday starter at any position any more. He's hit his way out of that thinking.

No doubt Mateo was not as an effective defensive shortstop last year, and that did seemingly get worse once his playing time became erratic. Statcast has his run value at SS at -1, after being at 9 last year. Saying that, his fielding percentage was about the same as the year before so it really wasn't an abundance of errors, but more of a lack of making the spectacular play that Mateo made the year before. I'd rather have Mateo as a utility guy over Urias because Mateo has more versatility with the ability to play SS and the outfield. And before anyone points to Mateo being bad in the outfield, he had one bad play where he missed the ball at the wall that he should have caught easily in the game against the Astros. His speed is another factor that give him the edge over Urias. We also have to remember that although Urias was banged up last year, he's a marginal tool guy going into his age 30 season. Expecting him to bounce back is not a good bet in my opinion. Urias to me is a right-handed Adam Frazier at this point in his career and I don't see him being a good utility guy with the ability to play just 2B and 3B (1B too if needed but most infielders can play there), no speed, and limited pop. Mateo gives the team some defensive flexibility, and he's one of the few guys on this team that hit lefties effectively last year .276/.329/.417/.746. I have zero issues with him spelling Gunnar against a tough lefty or with more work in spring training, serving as the 5th outfielder against lefties, spelling Mullins as well.

Hyde only gave him 30 starts in the second half of the season last year. Once Gunnar became the everyday SS basically Mateo became the utility guy. Barring injury, I think that will be his role in 2024.

Mateo's value at this point is that he can play multiple positions, most importantly shortstop, has elite speed, and can occasionally get into a ball. I hold out no hope that he will ever be a consistent hitter, but I do think he's a decent utility guy.

I think it's an interesting argument that prior to last year I would have told you would not have been close. But Gunnar's improvement's last year and his clearly superior arm does make you think that he might make a few more plays in the hole than Ortiz will. Ortiz though probably has a little more range to his glove side and coming in on slowly hit balls, and his ability to get rid of the ball quickly and accurately is unrivaled. What we do know for sure is that Gunnar has way more experience at 3B than Ortiz and while Ortiz did look smooth in the few opportunities, we have to imagine that Gunnar would be better there. With that said, I think the Orioles best defensive alignment with those two is Gunnar at 3B and Ortiz at SS.

I'll be honest, I don't know much about him besides what you can pull off the internet for him. I've never seen him pitch. All I know is he was a highly thought of left-handed starter for the Marlins when he went down to TJ surgery. Here's his profile: Marlins Top Prospects | MLB.com

Just as a heads up, that Jersey Shore gun is notorious for being very hot, perhaps 2-4 MPH hot at times.

I don't want anyone who's name rhymes with Frazier. He does have 17 games of post season experience so he's a bit of a been there, done that kind of guy. Seriously though, I have a hard time getting that awful appearance against the Orioles out of my head in the famous Ryan McKenna dropped flyball game. So obviously he was pretty horrid with Boston the last two years and looked about done, until the trade to the Dodgers who must've unlocked something. So what did they unlock? To the Baseball Savant (picture a Batman-esque segway). First thing I looked at was his pitch selection and since he only pitched for the Dodgers from June on, you get a nice clean split when you look it month to month. The first thing that jumps out to me is the Dodgers cut his usage of his ineffective 4-seamer from over 50% usage (50.7% in Apr and 55% in May with Boston) down 34.1 % in his first month while introducing a cutter to him. Adding the cutter to his fastball, sinker, slider mix allowed each of the pitches to eventually play and by September, he was pretty untouchable (Batters slashed .139/.225/.139/.364 in 40 PAs against him in Sep). So the question is, how much faith do the Orioles have in a going to be 36-year-old reliever (turns 37 in Aug) with his new cutter? Here's some highlights of the cutter last year. I'll be honest, after adding the cutter, it's hard not to like what he can bring to the mound and I'd definitely take him over Webb, Baumann, Baker or even Tate. Just depends on the deal but you have to imagine if the Dodgers or Rangers are after him the Orioles are not going to outbid them.

You are correct. I meant to say "starting experience" but missed the one bad start that he had. Either way, we agree, his 2.2 IP and his 10.13 ERA, including his Grayson Rodriguez-esque 1.2 IP start in the ALDS does not scream grizzled vet.

Without Povich, yes, I'd probably be ok with that for two years of Cease.

Perhaps, but perhaps a couple of low level guys blossom and become better trading chips and then they still have upper level guys to go to battle with in the near future.

B is the only one I'd consider, but I would want a low level starter upside pitching prospect added by the White Sox if they are getting three prospects of that caliber.

From what I've read, I think most people think the Orioles need to upgrade the rotation or at least add a good solid #3 or higher starter, and not a Gibson type. I think Elias knows that too, but he's not just giving away good, cheap talent because it's backed up a bit. I don't know what's been offered, but I do know I don't want any of the big three being traded. One other thing is we are at a point with Bradish and Kremer that they are established big league starters. We know the upside of Grayson and we have a half season of him fulfilling on his immense promise. We also have an established starter in Means though obviously coming off TJ surgery and then getting shut right back down does not make anyone feel good about what he can provide this year. So yes, I agree with you that I don't want Wells/Irvin/McDermott/Povich battling for the 5th starter's spot in a year where we should be legitimate contenders. But i had major question marks about the rotation throughout most of last season and they won 101 games. I don't want to take too much out of the playoff sweep because a lot of that had to do with hitting a white hot Texas team that was obviously destined to be World Champs last year. But, Bradish pitched well and next year, Grayson will have a whole season under his belt and will hopefully be able to contain his excitement/nerves better next year. I would right now like to be able to pencil a veteran with a track record into that 3rd starter's spot, but I don't want to overpay now when that "sure thing" starter might be more readily available at the trading deadline.

You are assuming the Orioles are changing something that's broke vs getting people into positions where they help the organization as a whole best.

Not to take this off your subject, but note that by 24-years old, the Astros had decided Wagner's best role was as a reliver despite some starter success in the minors. There are lot of parallels between Wagner and DL Hall in my opinion. While the game was a little different in the early to mid 90s then it is today, Wagner consistently went deeper in his starters than Hall has been able to do yet was converted into his potential HoF relieve career. I would not be surprised if Hall is not closing out a decent amount of games or is even the main closer by the end of 2024 if he's fully given a reliever role.

Let's stay away from the language and personal attacks and stick to the opinions and information. Thanks. And for once this has nothing to do with @Sports Guy

Another thing to remember is that Bradish, Rodriguez and Kremer all have more playoff experience than Cease, and Luzardo has never made it out of the 5th inning in his two post season starts. That's not to say that neither wouldn't be upgrades in the rotation this year, just that it doesn't necessarily mean the Orioles have acquired proven veteran starters with winning playoff experience. The Orioles should always be trying to improve their pitching depth so if they can get a young upside starter, for depth prospects than they absolutely should do it, but the big three can't be in any discussion and Kjerstad and Cowser only go in the right deal.

I think Elias has earned the benefit of the doubt that he knows what's best for his team coaching wise. I don't think anyone here is downplaying what Holt has done, and the fact that he's not gone, but has been placed in a role of responsibility as the overall pitching coordinator tells me Elias understand his value as well. Elias and his staff seem to put in their due diligence in when it comes to hiring or removing coaches so if French is the guy they want, then so be it. I certainly have no concerns over a "rookie" coach for a contending team, and I don't have the ability to evaluate coaches so why would I be upset over a coaches change? Perhaps some people would rather have a seasoned pitching coach who wants to do things their way versus someone who knows how to communicate data/analytics/mechanics to their pitchers? I guess that's there right, but I don't really understand how this move creates angst for anyone.

40. Billy Cook – 2B/OF/1B (AA): The 24-year old infielder/outfielder has an interesting combination of speed, power, and a little versatility. A mistake hitter who can do some damage if a pitcher gets behind and has to come in with a fastball, Cooks smacked 24 home runs but got homer happy late in the year and hit a few homers, but his average tumbled and his strike out rates rose. He's susceptible to chasing off speed pitches and older more mature pitchers gave him a harder time. He's a plus runner who stole 30 bases in 33 tries. Defensively he made starts at RF (42), 2B (35), CF (12), LF (10) and 1B (8). By the end of the year he was mainly playing second base, but he's a below average defender there, but won't kill a team. In the outfield, Cook catches everything he gets to and his speed allows him to make up for some bad jumps and routes on occasion. He's got an average arm strength wise, but his throws can be erratic at best.

I'm not sure we can accurately access a pitcher four games back after TJ surgery. Let me see what he looks like this year. Saying that, I agree that he can't just be penciled in for 32 starts and 180 innings of classic Means work.

I'm kind of surprised these things are still a thing with the internet, social media and sites like this that allow people to aggregate news and give and receive opinion. I can't imagine there are a lot of folks still turning into the radio in the evening to get their hot stove "news" and takes.

Perhaps, but Urias will play at 30-years old next year and if Ortiz and Westburg are still here next year, I just don't see a role for him on the team. Mateo can back up SS, play CF, and is a weapon as a pinch runner late in games. He makes sense in an utility role. Westburg, Gunnar and Ortiz can all play 3B and there is still Mayo to contend with at the hot corner. Westburg and Ortiz can play 2B and there's still Norby and Holliday to contend with at 2B. I think Urias will come into camp as a break glass in case of emergency if Westburg and Ortiz are still here. I think he's been the backup plan in case one of them were traded this offseason.

That's a very fair wrap up of the current rotation candidates. We all would like to see the Orioles get another starter, perhaps one like Cease. But Elias is not going to give up Holliday, Basallo or Mayo for him and the sooner the White Sox get that the faster this deal can get done. Honestly, a Kjerstad and Povich headliner deal with maybe a 3rd piece like a Justin Armbreuster would be palatable and fair. I like both Kjerstad and Povich, but if Mayo can be converted to RF, he could be a long term option there once Santander is gone. For next year though, this team doesn't necessarily need Kjerstad and he brings enough value to get a TOR-potential type starter in Cease.