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2017 Hall of Fame Vote/Tracker


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4 hours ago, Number5 said:

I don't remember that at all.  You're saying Caminiti actually said something implicating Bagwell?  Please elaborate.  Yes, they were friends and teammates, but every player in baseball at the time was friends and/or teammates with someone that was using PED.  Sure would like to see the Caminiti comments you are talking about, because I don't remember anything like that.  Bagwell and Guerrero were comparable players, and rank very highly by similarity scores for each other.  Both were strong, muscular athletes.  I'm confident Vlad will get in.  Bagwell did end up with the higher WAR by a good margin.  Bagwell was eligible before Vlad, and it makes sense for him to precede Vlad into the HOF.  Neither player is any kind of reason for the other to not be enshrined.  Quite the contrary.

I've heard the argument that Bagwell was fishy because he only hit four homers his last year in the minors.  But that was in New Britain in 1990.  The whole New Britain Red Sox team hit 31 homers in 139 games that year, and Bagwell finished 3rd among qualifiers in the Eastern League in slugging.  It was a pitcher's league of the likes we just don't see any more.  The league averaged seven homers per 600 PAs.

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9 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

There's a problem with defining the average HOF RFer, maybe worse than at most other positions.  If you go by rWAR the top 14 RFers are in (with the exceptions of Larry Walker and Joe Jackson).  But then #s 19, 24-26, 29, 30, 32, 33 and 36 are in along with 42 and 68.  The average HOF RFer's rWAR is 73, but with a range of 32 to 163.  Winfield is actually 10 wins shy of average, and six wins shy of the positional average for peak seven seasons. Vlad is right in line with Winfield, three spots and about four wins behind in rWAR.

Reggie Smith got MVP votes in seven seasons, played in seven all star games, and had essentially the same career as Winfield right down to rWAR and JAWS.  He got 0.7% of the vote his one year on the ballot.

A player who almost exactly matches the HOF averages for RF in rWAR, best seven, and JAWS is Larry Walker.  Harry Heilmann and Paul Waner are also very close, along with Reggie Jackson and Sam Crawford.

Oh man you are speaking my language!

Big fan of Reggie Smith.  Well, fan of his hidden worth - he played before I was born.  Like in the following discussion, I found it intriguing Jim Rice was the Boston OF that made it because I'd rank him behind Smith, Evans and Lynn in that order.  I never understood quite what "feared" meant regarding him.  Did he actually frighten pitchers, or were they just afraid to throw strikes against him?

Larry Walker is an inexplicable afterthought in the HOF voting right now.  Nod to Jeff Bagwell mentioning him.  He was a fantastic player.  And the only real knock against him - playing shortened/injured seasons - didn't prevent certain others from being inducted.  The Anti Coors-Field bias against him is sad.  He could have been a Hall of Fame player elsewhere.

/rant

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On 1/19/2017 at 11:37 AM, DrungoHazewood said:

The objective measures put Bagwell at a level clearly above Vlad. Bagwell was almost 40 runs above average per 600 PA, Vlad not quite 30. JAWS and rWAR have Bagwell as the 6th-best first baseman of all time, Vlad about 21st in RF.

You left off the part of my post about Bagwell's likely steroid use.  I continue to be skeptical about every WAR stat, and your comment makes it more obvious to me that relying on them leads to bad conclusions.  There's no chance that Bagwell wias the 6th best first baseman of all time.  

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On 1/19/2017 at 0:42 PM, Frobby said:

Dwight Evans had one of the two best throwing arms I ever saw in RF, the other being Clemente.   He also was a high OBP guy in the years before that skill was really appreciated.   He walked over 100 times in three seasons and over 95 in three others.   I don't think he got any serious consideration for the Hall of Fame, but he probably should have.  

I thought Rice was the 3rd best overall player on the Lynn/Evans/Rice outfields.  Lynn was the best when healthy, and Evans was the most consistent.     

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5 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

You left off the part of my post about Bagwell's likely steroid use.  I continue to be skeptical about every WAR stat, and your comment makes it more obvious to me that relying on them leads to bad conclusions.  There's no chance that Bagwell wias the 6th best first baseman of all time.  

We know folks were using steroids for decades before anyone was "caught".  Just accept the fact that lots of guys added in the last thirty years used.

 

I do wish we had a HoF member who is currently considered clean who was brave enough to admit they used.

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22 hours ago, Ruzious said:

You left off the part of my post about Bagwell's likely steroid use.  I continue to be skeptical about every WAR stat, and your comment makes it more obvious to me that relying on them leads to bad conclusions.  There's no chance that Bagwell wias the 6th best first baseman of all time.  

Where do you rank Bagwell? Among retired first basemen since WWII McGwire is probably the only better hitter.  Before that... Gehrig obviously, Foxx, arguably Greenberg. Mize? 

There are 18 HOF 1B and Bagwell is 7th  in OPS+. Two of the guys in front of him (Brothers, Connor) are from the 1800s.

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On 1/22/2017 at 1:50 PM, Ruzious said:

You left off the part of my post about Bagwell's likely steroid use.  I continue to be skeptical about every WAR stat, and your comment makes it more obvious to me that relying on them leads to bad conclusions.  There's no chance that Bagwell wias the 6th best first baseman of all time.  

I agree.

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On 1/23/2017 at 0:31 PM, Tony-OH said:

I would just like to add now that Bagwell and Rodriguez were selected, the steroid bubble has been busted. Might as well let them all in now. At this point who cares? 

There is still one line drawn - those that actually failed a test after baseball started enforcing its own rules.

Manny Ramirez and Alex Rodriguez fall on the wrong side of this line.  None of Bagwell, I-Rod, Piazza, Sosa, Sheffield, or even Bonds and Clemens are there.

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    • dWAR is just the run value for defense added with the defensive adjustment.  Corner OF spots have a -7.5 run adjustment, while CF has a +2.5 adjustment over 150 games.    Since Cowser played both CF and the corners they pro-rate his time at each to calculate his defensive adjustment. 
    • Just to be clear, though, fWAR also includes a substantial adjustment for position, including a negative one for Cowser.  For a clearer example on that front, as the chart posted higher on this page indicates, Carlos Santana had a +14 OAA — which is the source data that fWAR’s defensive component is based on. That 14 outs above average equates to 11-12 (they use different values on this for some reason) runs better than the average 1B.  So does Santana have a 12.0 defensive value, per fWAR? He does not. That’s because they adjust his defensive value downward to reflect that he’s playing a less difficult/valuable position. In this case, that adjustment comes out to -11.0 runs, as you can see here:   So despite apparently having a bona fide Gold Glove season, Santana’s Fielding Runs value (FanGraphs’ equivalent to dWAR) is barely above average, at 1.1 runs.    Any good WAR calculation is going to adjust for position. Being a good 1B just isn’t worth as much as being an average SS or catcher. Just as being a good LF isn’t worth as much as being an average CF. Every outfielder can play LF — only the best outfielders can play CF.  Where the nuance/context shows up here is with Cowser’s unique situation. Playing LF in OPACY, with all that ground to cover, is not the same as playing LF at Fenway or Yankee Stadium. Treating Cowser’s “position” as equivalent to Tyler O’Neill’s, for example, is not fair. The degree of difficulty is much, much higher at OPACY’s LF, and so the adjustment seems out of whack for him. That’s the one place where I’d say the bWAR value is “unfair” to Cowser.
    • Wait a second here, the reason he's -0.1 in bb-ref dwar is because they're using drs to track his defensive run value.  He's worth 6.6 runs in defense according to fangraphs, which includes adjustments for position, which would give him a fangraphs defensive war of +0.7.
    • A little funny to have provided descriptions of the hits (“weak” single; “500 foot” HR). FIP doesn’t care about any of that either, so it’s kind of an odd thing to add in an effort to make ERA look bad.  Come in, strike out the first hitter, then give up three 108 MPH rocket doubles off the wall. FIP thinks you were absolutely outstanding, and it’s a shame your pathetic defense and/or sheer bad luck let you down. Next time you’ll (probably) get the outcomes you deserve. They’re both flawed. So is xFIP. So is SIERA. So is RA/9. So is WPA. So is xERA. None of them are perfect measures of how a pitcher’s actual performance was, because there’s way too much context and too many variables for any one metric to really encompass.  But when I’m thinking about awards, for me at least, it ends up having to be about the actual outcomes. I don’t really care what a hitter’s xWOBA is when I’m thinking about MVP, and the same is true for pitchers. Did you get the outs? Did the runs score? That’s the “value” that translates to the scoreboard and, ultimately, to the standings. So I think the B-R side of it is more sensible for awards.  I definitely take into account the types of factors that you (and other pitching fWAR advocates) reference as flaws. So if a guy plays in front of a particular bad defense or had a particularly high percentage of inherited runners score, I’d absolutely adjust my take to incorporate that info. And I also 100% go to Fangraphs first when I’m trying to figure out which pitchers we should acquire (i.e., for forward looking purposes).  But I just can’t bring myself say that my Cy Young is just whichever guy had the best ratio of Ks to BBs to HRs over a threshold number of innings. As @Frobby said, it just distills out too much of what actually happened.
    • We were all a lot younger in 2005.  No one wanted to believe Canseco cause he’s a smarmy guy. Like I said, he was the only one telling the truth. It wasn’t a leap of faith to see McGwire up there and Sosa up there and think “yeah, those guys were juicing” but then suddenly look at Raffy and think he was completely innocent.  It’s a sad story. The guy should be in Hall of Fame yet 500 homers and 3,000 hits are gone like a fart in the wind cause his legacy is wagging his finger and thinking he couldn’t get caught.  Don’t fly too close to the sun.  
    • I think if we get the fun sprinkler loving Gunnar that was in the dugout yesterday, I don’t think we have to worry about him pressing. He seemed loose and feeling good with the other guys he was with, like Kremer.
    • I was a lot younger back then, but that betrayal hit really hard because he had been painting himself as literally holier than thou, and shook his finger to a congressional committee and then barely 2 weeks later failed the test.
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