More Sordid Clemens Rumors....

[Gurgi]

Sex is a normal and healthy thing. A 28 year old having sex with a 15 year old is wrong because she cannot give consent as defined by science, not culture or custom. A minor cannot give intellectual consent to a 28 year old man. Whether you are a future HOF pitcher, a cult, a foreign culture, or lived back in 1650 . . . consent cannot be truly given.

Clemens, if he had sex with a 15 year old when he was 28, committed a pedophilic act. It does not exactly make him a pedophile per se. Also, rape is not distasteful and that is what it is. A 28 year old having sex with a 15 year is rape. This isnt a cultural thing. This is how the brain develops.

This is utter junk. Junk. It is not rape. Edgar Allen Poe married and had sex with his young cousin. By all accounts they LOVED each other greatly.

Edgar Allen Poe did NOT rape her.

This statute rape thing is a modern thing developed by modern ideas. Modern doesnt mean correct in all ways.

It all comes down to Culture.

[crawdad]

This is utter junk. Junk. It is not rape. Edgar Allen Poe married and had sex with his young cousin. By all accounts they LOVED each other greatly.

Edgar Allen Poe did NOT rape her.

This statute rape thing is a modern thing developed by modern ideas. Modern doesnt mean correct in all ways.

It all comes down to Culture.

We should probably end this discourse. It is clear you are on the side of culture determining things. I am on biology determining things. We are not going to meet on this. I'm also making sure my nieces stay away from you.

[Gurgi]

We should probably end this discourse. It is clear you are on the side of culture determining things. I am on biology determining things. We are not going to meet on this. I'm also making sure my nieces stay away from you.

Dude I got lucky when I got my wife. I'm set.

[Witchy_Chick]

This whole area of the law is fraught with hysteria. Each state sets its own standards some states have 14 as the age of consent. In a biological sense women are attracted to older, successful males. Males are attracted to younger, healthy women.

Why do you think societies around the world used to marry their daughters off at a young age? Because the desire to have sex is natural and very, very strong.

Many of our greatgrand parents were married at the ages we are talking about. How is being married make one act a crime and another not?

What Clemens did might be distasteful but I cant imagine running around calling him a Pedophile over it.

A great deal of that was a function of lower life-expectancies for both men and women. When folks are dying off at say..........age 40, marrying and procreating at a younger age was necessary in order to preserve bloodlines and keep the world population from dying out.

I seriously doubt Clemens was thinking altruistically when he.......ahem...... "befriended" a 15-year-old McCready.

Witchy

[RShack]

I'd call that pedophilia. Are you saying most people are OK with pedophiles?

I certainly am not.

It's not pedophilia. That's about sex with pre-pubescent children. It's a biological line, not a legal one. Once somebody goes thru puberty, then it's not pedophilia. Just because society says somebody is a minor, that doesn't make it pedophilia.

Once you get past puberty, at that point it's 100% a cultural thing. And that changes with how complex society is, and how complicated it is for somebody to find their place in society. Just a couple hundred years ago, adolescence didn't even exist. You were a child, and then you were instantly an adult. Adolescence got invented when society got more complicated, and required more prep for people to find their place in the world. Prior to that, youngish teenagers got married all the time. It's still that way in pre-industrial societies.

[RShack]

A 28 year old having sex with a 15 year old is wrong because she cannot give consent as defined by science, not culture or custom.

That's not true.

Your claim about science defining age of consent it just wrong.

Science has nothing to do with what the age of consent is. It is 100% a cultural thing. It has zip to do with science.

[Mad Mark]

The trouble with making laws about certain things is laws cannot account for the precocious or the dim. Laws about human relationships will always wind up using sledge hammers to break eggs.

[twoBshorty]

Who cares if it's cultural or biological? It's disgusting. A 15-year-old girl having sex with a 28-year-old MARRIED MAN WITH 2 KIDS is disgusting. Whether it's more because of the adultery or the age difference I don't know but either way it's disgusting. There goes his defamation of character lawsuit. Hard to defame something you don't have.

I want to know if Debbie Clemens knew about this at the time or if she's just finding out now. I don't understand the gamble Roger took here. He had to know this would come out if he started pushing the steroids thing. He's just looking worse and worse and he's on the verge of losing a lot more than just his reputation. Why doesn't he stop?

[crawdad]

That's not true.

Your claim about science defining age of consent it just wrong.

Science has nothing to do with what the age of consent is. It is 100% a cultural thing. It has zip to do with science.

I am using the term pedophilia broadly and referring it to intellectual capcity instead of biological reproductive capacity. I should just be using the term rape. On the science angle, I can see you don't really understand the issue and how science is involved. Maybe I am not explaining myself well. This is probably the easiest thing to read on the subject:

http://www.slate.com/id/2174841

A 28 year old should not have sex with a 15 year old. That is science's view in terms of when consent can occur. If you are cool with non-consensual sex . . . then you are correct. That is a cultural thing as to whether consent matters.

[RShack]

I am using the term pedophilia broadly and referring it to intellectual capcity instead of biological reproductive capacity. I should just be using the term rape. On the science angle, I can see you don't really understand the issue and how science is involved. Maybe I am not explaining myself well. This is probably the easiest thing to read on the subject:

http://www.slate.com/id/2174841

A 28 year old should not have sex with a 15 year old. That is science's view in terms of when consent can occur. If you are cool with non-consensual sex . . . then you are correct. That is a cultural thing as to whether consent matters.

That is not a scientific article. It's just an essay, an opinion piece. And there is nothing in there about science knowing when the age of consent is. Science doesn't know when the age of consent is, or when it should be.

I never said it was fine for a 28 year old guy to have sex with a 15 year old. I just said it's not pedophilia. Because it's not. Just because you use the word incorrectly, that's not using it "broadly", it's misusing it. Doing that doesn't change what it means. Calling it pedophilia is just wrong. A typical 15-year old is not a child biologically. After puberty, she's a woman biologically. Now, depending on society, she may be protected by law as a minor. But that has absolutely nothing to do with pedophilia. Pedophilia is about sex with pre-pubescent children. A 15 year old is not the same thing as a little kid.

And it's not rape either. Depending on the state, it may or may not be "statutory rape", which is a different thing.

You can say it's wrong without using language incorrectly to make it sound pathological. It's not pathological like pedophilia is. It might be other things, but it's not that. My bride was pregnant and married when she was 15. She doesn't regret having her son one bit. She consented to everything, he turned out great and so did she. I'd like to hear you tell her she wasn't old enough to make important decisions. She'd tell you where to shove it in a hurry, Mr Know-It-All. She was not only old enough to consent, she was also old enough to fight like hell to (1) have the baby and (2) keep him and raise him, when lots of the Adult World was leaning on her to do otherwise on both decisions. It's certainly not the plan we would recommend to anyone, but that's life. I think you should lighten up about the name calling, especially when you're using pathological terms you don't understand. Are you gonna call my son's biological father a pedophile? I'm not trying to fight with you, I'm just saying that you need to think about what you're saying, dude. It's easy to have all the answers from up on your high horse. In real life, things aren't that simple.

[Why Not?]

Who cares if it's cultural or biological? It's disgusting. A 15-year-old girl having sex with a 28-year-old MARRIED MAN WITH 2 KIDS is disgusting. Whether it's more because of the adultery or the age difference I don't know but either way it's disgusting. There goes his defamation of character lawsuit. Hard to defame something you don't have.

I want to know if Debbie Clemens knew about this at the time or if she's just finding out now. I don't understand the gamble Roger took here. He had to know this would come out if he started pushing the steroids thing. He's just looking worse and worse and he's on the verge of losing a lot more than just his reputation. Why doesn't he stop?

Why won't he stop? Perhaps it's because he's essentially gotten away with anything and everything he's wanted for the last 20 years. Superstar athletes and similar celebs just live in a different world than the rest of us.

[crawdad]

That is not a scientific article. It's just an essay, an opinion piece. And there is nothing in there about science knowing when the age of consent is. Science doesn't know when the age of consent is, or when it should be.

I never said it was fine for a 28 year old guy to have sex with a 15 year old. I just said it's not pedophilia. Because it's not. Just because you use the word incorrectly, that's not using it "broadly", it's misusing it. Doing that doesn't change what it means. Calling it pedophilia is just wrong. A typical 15-year old is not a child biologically. After puberty, she's a woman biologically. Now, depending on society, she may be protected by law as a minor. But that has absolutely nothing to do with pedophilia. Pedophilia is about sex with pre-pubescent children. A 15 year old is not the same thing as a little kid.

And it's not rape either. Depending on the state, it may or may not be "statutory rape", which is a different thing.

You can say it's wrong without using language incorrectly to make it sound pathological. It's not pathological like pedophilia is. It might be other things, but it's not that. My bride was pregnant and married when she was 15. She doesn't regret having her son one bit. She consented to everything, he turned out great and so did she. I'd like to hear you tell her she wasn't old enough to make important decisions. She'd tell you where to shove it in a hurry, Mr Know-It-All. She was not only old enough to consent, she was also old enough to fight like hell to (1) have the baby and (2) keep him and raise him, when lots of the Adult World was leaning on her to do otherwise on both decisions. It's certainly not the plan we would recommend to anyone, but that's life. I think you should lighten up about the name calling, especially when you're using pathological terms you don't understand. Are you gonna call my son's biological father a pedophile? I'm not trying to fight with you, I'm just saying that you need to think about what you're saying, dude. It's easy to have all the answers from up on your high horse. In real life, things aren't that simple.

And do you want me to cite scientific papers on intellectual consent? I said before that my use of the term pedophile was broad. I would say non-consensual sex. I stand by those general lines. I do not mean to offend you, but this is not me being moral. This is what the science says. Maybe your wife's brain developed at an increased rate. These are broad determinations. Stuff happens, but it is really fixed with dozens and dozens of studies over the past couple decades that intellectual consent is around 17. I'm not sure what you want me to say. I know nothing of your specific situation just that most 15 year olds are incapable of understanding consequences of long term decision making. Sociological, psychological, and biochemical papers back all of this up. Again, I misused the term pedophile and I did that for effect, I was wrong for that. Using it to describe this threshold was inapproproate. I apologize for that. I can't change the literature when it comes to intellectual consent. It is what it is. Everyone develops slightly differently. You could have a special case. A lot of people would have taken the easy way out, but she didn't. She should be commended for that.

[crawdad]

I want to add one more thing. I am writing about differences in populations as defined by age. Consent isn't this thing that just all of a sudden happens to you one day. It is a process, but it is so difficult to legislate and enforce like that . . . that no one does that. I am speaking of the issue in scientific terms. In scientific terms when I say that a 15 year old is not capable of consent, but a 17 year old is . . . that is a comparison of populations. The age 17 population is not significantly different from the 18+ age groups in terms of intellectual consent. The average 18+ is considered to have intellectual consent, but I think we need to realize that everyone in that group does things without true consent. Nothing is ever 100%. 15 year olds as a group have significantly less intellectual capacity to give consent. It is about 1 in 5 are capable of adult level consent. The 4 in 5 who do not meet this are not making decisions every day without consent . . . it just means they do it less effectively than adult populations. 15 year olds can give intellectual consent, but they also think they are giving consent when they really aren't at a level that significantly exceeds the adult rate.

I hope that makes sense.