Moose Milligan

Who's said he's the second coming of Ozzie Smith? I only brought up Ozzie to highlight what a terrible hitter he was for his first 4 years, yet still provided value. As far a solid explanation about why no other contending team is selling out for defense at SS, again, the Orioles did it last year and were in contention into September. Just because you can't identify other teams doing it doesn't mean it's not a viable option. I'm too lazy to do it but I'm sure you could find playoff teams in the past 10-20 years that had a great glove man at SS who didn't hit a lot. Rey Ordonez on the Mets comes to mind. Andrelton Simmons fashioned himself into a guy who could hit a little with a hollow OBP skill set, his career OPS is under .700 (probably dragged down by his last couple of years). Jose Iglesias OPS'd .654 for Detroit in 2013. I don't think this argument "why is no one else doing it?" the flex you think it is. It ignores, once again, that a player can contribute positively to a team and not hit particularly well.

It’s like Trea all over.

Ok. So if I understand you correctly, you think he’s in line for a major slide in his defensive capabilities?

I don't think anyone here has said he's irreplaceable. We must not be reading the same board. I think what people are more in favor of, or more comfortable with, is letting him being the opening day SS. I don't think anyone here is clamoring for him to be a long term SS solution or thinks that he's in the long term plans for this club at all. I don't believe anyone has ever made that claim. In regards to the Belanger comp, I don't believe anyone is saying he's the second coming of Belanger, either. Rather, you can have a light hitting, great fielding SS on your team and it's fine. Belanger's career WAR is something over 40. Again, no one's saying he's a direct comp to Belanger but he's very much (so far) in that mold of a player. Whether or not he can still provide value as a defender into his late 20s and early 30s remains to be seen. I think the silly thing here is insisting that everyone at every position be a good-to-great hitter. Ignoring that you can still bring a good amount of value to the team by playing defense at a well above average level is being intentionally obtuse, as is the idea that EVERYONE HAS TO BE A GOOD HITTER!!! 3.5 WAR is nothing to sneeze at, I'm not sure why you're quick to downplay it. I'm also not sure why you're quick to think that Ortiz could replace of it when none of us really have any idea how he'll perform at the big league level. Mind you, I don't think anyone here is against Ortiz getting playing time and seeing what he can do. If he can replace that 3.5 WAR, or a good chunk of it, great. If not, that's okay there's other MI candidates in the system.

Who, specifically, is overrating Mateo? I think everyone here admits that he's not a good hitter but a good to great glove-man with blinding speed on the bases. His strengths and weaknesses are easily defined and yet he was a positive WAR player for us last year. SG is right to wonder how long that defense will continue. I don't think anyone believes that Mateo will become a great, or even a good hitter. Who's selling Ortiz short? Keep in mind that not many of us have actually seen him play for an extended period of time. What we have to go on, like it or not, is scouting reports, highlights and anecdotes. Even if any of our esteemed members on this site have seen him play, it was for a handful of games. That said, it appears that he's a great fielder, one of the best in the organization, most everyone has been able to agree on that. How's that selling him short? I've seen a lot of people (me included) that believe Ortiz will get playing time in Baltimore this season. I'm not sure if that's selling him short by any stretch. This is going for another 30 pages, easy. The way he's been dissected is absurd, next thing you know we'll be debating which way he leans when he farts.

But Holt is a Wizard! C'mon WC, have some faith. I find your loyalty to guys we already have endearing and any newcomers as a threat to them to be adorable.

It's fine. I do wonder what the A's would want with Hernaiz and why they liked him.

Even though I like this trade, I still feel the need to say this offseason is still a giant skidmark on a fresh pair of tighty whities.

Well THOSE people are just silly.

I remember he pitched well against us last year. Infuriating because, IIRC, he was a soft tossing lefty and that's typically kryptonite for us. Went 5 innings, but got the no-decision...Oakland won the game 2-1. 6 hits, 4 strikeouts, 2 walks, 1 earned run.

Well then we shouldn't have him pitch on the road, right? I'm not seeing the hate for this trade. We've got a surplus of middle infield types, it was getting crowded already before we decided to draft Holliday. Hernaiz was probably on the fringe behind guys like Ortiz and Westburg. I agree that Irvin isn't a fantastic talent but I don't think Hernaiz had much of a future here by the way things seem to be shaking out.

Virbitsky at first glance appears to be organizational filler. 24 years old and hasn't made it past A-Ball. Yes, I'm aware he went to college and played at Penn State until he was 22.

I think that sums it up well.

To answer your question, we don't know if Mateo is a trade target for anyone or not. Maybe Elias is willing to deal him, maybe he isn't. Maybe he hasn't been approached with anything he likes. Who knows? But again, you don't have to be a great hitter (even a good one) to provide value, especially at SS. You're an Orioles fan, I shouldn't have to explain this to you since you know about Mark Belanger (as referenced earlier).

Yeah, advising how to take advantage of suckers.

Lol, everyone wants to be first. When Beane swings a trade, it makes me wonder why he wanted the player he got back. I'm now thinking more of Hernaiz than I ever did before. Irvin looks decent, wondering if he's coming in for a rotation spot or a long man.

Do they hit this poorly but field this well? You seem to be missing the WAR argument here. Mateo, despite his offensive shortcomings does provide positive value to the team. And by a decent amount. You can stand by your comment all you want but Mateo was an every day player on a good team last year. No, they don't. Again, you're failing to understand that you can make contributions and not hit particularly well.

Yeah, but Wagner 11.9 K/9 > Rivera 8.2 K/9

Yeah, I could see Mateo as the opening day SS but slowly gets phased out over the course of the summer as different options emerge. Unless he's figured out how to hit, and then he'll be really hard to unseat. I really have no idea what's in store for him, either. It could go a few different ways.

I saw a stat somewhere, Billy Wagner could come out of retirement and allow 100 hits in 100 at bats and he'd just match Rivera's batting average against.

I am NOT comparing Mateo to Ozzie Smith (well, maybe a little, but I'm moreso trying to illustrate a point and I know that age is a factor here, etc, whatever) when I say that Ozzie's first 4 years were a slash line of .231/.295/.278 for a .573 OPS. His OPS+ was 66. Heading into his 5th year (age 27) is when he began to become a bit better at the plate. But his WAR for the first 4 seasons was a tidy 11.0. That's not an outstanding number but it goes to show you can be weak with the bat and still provide value.

I see your point. Back to Mateo's shortcomings, I don't think anyone would want to trot out a lineup of guys who have a .276 OBP. But one guy in the lineup is ok, especially if he provides defense the way he does at SS. The Orioles playoff chances aren't going to be won or lost because Mateo provided 2.5-3.5 WAR if he stays the everyday SS all season but only had a .276 OBP.

Preventing a run is the same as scoring a run. Mateo at SS is fine. And when he has that two or three week stretch where he hits a little and we all wonder if he's turning into an offensive force that's a lot of fun, too.

Holt is a wizard!

Anyone know if John came through on that promise to have the beat writers over for some hot cocoa and to look at the Orioles financials?