Jones - "I'm not an accountant...You Have to Spend Some of the Money"

[Nevermore]

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/

Then go through each Oriole player signed through 2016, 2017, 2018.. plug all that into a spreadsheet. Budget numbers. Gordo is good at that [stuff].

Thanks. There are several sites that I've seen. Gordo said to go to Baseball Reference and I did. I couldn't find it.

[Nevermore]

Here it is. BR

The "Arb cost" (rough estimate) and "other costs" (estimate) are include by the Baseball Reference.

Thanks.

[weams]

Gee, thanks for all of your help. :rolleyestf:

Thanks. There are several sites that I've seen. Gordo said to go to Baseball Reference and I did. I couldn't find it.

I am not certain if this is what you were looking for or not. I was the one speaking with Stotle that it was possible that the estimate go up by ten percent.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/2015-payroll-salaries.shtml

[Nevermore]

The vast majority of players don't understand how decisions are made in the FO, or why. I'm sure Jones cares about long-term issues, but I doubt very much he's looking at and considering the same data the FO is when reaching conclusions about what he thinks the team should be doing.

And you know this how? Did you quiz them on this information? Or are you making assumptions? I make the assumption that some players study the same data that the FO studies and some of them don't.

[DrungoHazewood]

Yes, I think it goes both ways. If AJ is sincere that he wants to keep the band together and thinks they can win (and I believe he is), then he should be talking with both sides in the negotiation.

I am not a fan of salary caps in baseball. But one advantage of a salary cap is that there's something hard to point to when you're trying to get a player to take a team-friendly deal. In baseball the situation is that the players and their agents assume that the sky is the limit, everyone or at least someone can pay you more. The only thing being loyal to a team gets you is less money.

[Aristotelian]

Yes, I think it goes both ways. If AJ is sincere that he wants to keep the band together and thinks they can win (and I believe he is), then he should be talking with both sides in the negotiation.

And he should be consistent toward both sides in public (if he is going to go public at all).

[Nevermore]

He is also a union member, and a high profile player advocate.

When I was working (I'm retired), I belonged to a union and I got regular information from the union. But also information from some of my co-workers and sometimes from management. Managers who would shut themselves off from employees and refuse to give information out were considered bad managers, not only by the workers but also by other managers. Of course, some workers would come to different conclusions than those offered by management. But it wasn't a situation where management closed themselves off from workers while making their decisions.

Of course I'm sure that MLB is different from most work places. There is a history of sharp conflict between management and players. Also a history of management closing themselves off from players, refusing to share information.

[DrungoHazewood]

And you know this how? Did you quiz them on this information? Or are you making assumptions? I make the assumption that some players study the same data that the FO studies and some of them don't.

I would assume that the players don't have access to detailed financial information from the club. There aren't many businesses where the employees get full view of financial data across the company. There's no reason they would, and there's every reason to keep that from them. The players see largely the same things we see, if they even choose to. Forbes estimates. Published salaries and payrolls. And they assume ownership can probably pay more, but choose not to, with no more basis than our guesses.

[DrungoHazewood]

When I was working (I'm retired), I belonged to a union and I got regular information from the union. But also information from some of my co-workers and sometimes from management. Managers who would shut themselves off from employees and refuse to give information out were considered bad managers, not only by the workers but also by other managers. Of course, some workers would come to different conclusions than those offered by management. But it wasn't a situation where management closed themselves off from workers while making their decisions.

Of course I'm sure that MLB is different from most work places. There is a history of sharp conflict between management and players. Also a history of management closing themselves off from players, refusing to share information.

You had access to detailed financial data for your entire company? If so I think that's an exception more than a rule.

[Nevermore]

I am not certain if this is what you were looking for or not. I was the one speaking with Stotle that it was possible that the estimate go up by ten percent.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/2015-payroll-salaries.shtml

Actually, I visited several sites to find what teams owe players in terms of arbitration, signed contracts, etc. in the coming years. These were the minimum salary commitments. I haven't been able to find what each FO has in terms of the maximums they are willing to spend for FAs and/or in trades.

[Nevermore]

I would assume that the players don't have access to detailed financial information from the club. There aren't many businesses where the employees get full view of financial data across the company. There's no reason they would, and there's every reason to keep that from them. The players see largely the same things we see, if they even choose to. Forbes estimates. Published salaries and payrolls. And they assume ownership can probably pay more, but choose not to, with no more basis than our guesses.

I'm not sure about other businesses. I worked for the Federal Government and information was out there. But of course we didn't get access to all of the information, just a significant amount.

When a business is highly secretive about their financial information, it leads to conflict and lowered production. MLB's history is full of secretive owners who withhold financial info from their employees, not just players but from managers, GMs and other FO personnel. This leads to conflict between players, FO personnel, and owners. No one truly believes the other side, which is why the management situation in MLB is quite dysfunctional. As you said, players (and some fans) believe that owners have a lot more money to spend than they frequently state.

[weams]

When I was working (I'm retired), I belonged to a union and I got regular information from the union. But also information from some of my co-workers and sometimes from management. Managers who would shut themselves off from employees and refuse to give information out were considered bad managers, not only by the workers but also by other managers. Of course, some workers would come to different conclusions than those offered by management. But it wasn't a situation where management closed themselves off from workers while making their decisions.

Of course I'm sure that MLB is different from most work places. There is a history of sharp conflict between management and players. Also a history of management closing themselves off from players, refusing to share information.

Well, ownership did collude to defeat the repeal of the reserve club. But then, there have never been armed confrontations - so there is that.

[weams]

Well, ownership did collude to defeat the repeal of the reserve club. But then, there have never been armed confrontations - so there is that.

Or hangings.

[weams]

I'm not sure about other businesses. I worked for the Federal Government and information was out there. But of course we didn't get access to all of the information, just a significant amount.

When a business is highly secretive about their financial information, it leads to conflict and lowered production. MLB's history is full of secretive owners who withhold financial info from their employees, not just players but from managers, GMs and other FO personnel. This leads to conflict between players, FO personnel, and owners. No one truly believes the other side, which is why the management situation in MLB is quite dysfunctional. As you said, players (and some fans) believe that owners have a lot more money to spend than they frequently state.

I am sure that all unions have some similarities. I do know that governments, as opposed to businesses, are covered by freedom of information acts. Because like ... we pay for it. And not by choice. You can always vote with your feet on businesses. Government is a majority rule situation.

[Creamsicle]

I wish AJ would try to influence Davis to accept a team-friendly deal and stay with the team, at least as much as he is trying to influence the organization. I think he has at least a 1-2% chance of success with Davis, as opposed to zero with the organization.

Interesting thought. And if he could manage to influence CD that way I can imagine him using that as leverage with PA et al. afterward.