Tony-OH

Depends on your definition of long. Over 105 PAs and 23 games at Aberdeen, Holliday slumped to .183/.362/.232/.594 with 26 K's and only 1 2B and 1 HR. His 21 walks is what propped up his OBP. Now he made the adjustments and hit well afterwards to include his good stats in AA. Holliday is a fantastic player and I'm sure he worked hard to improve this offseason, so who knows what he will look like this spring, but barring an injury, I still think he starts the year in AAA and they'll see what he looks like after a few months at least. Of course, if they are not planning on letting Mayo get a legitimate shot at 3B, they very well may decide Holliday's bat and defense at 2B, is better than Urias so they could move Westburg to 3B and DFA/trade Urias.

The only thing I take out of that quote from Elias is that Holliday is not moving Gunnar off Shortstop anytime soon or maybe ever.

Hays is a good player, but he's the exact guy who you keep giving one year contracts to especially with Cowser, Bradfield, Beavers, Horvath and maybe even Norby as possible replacements.

I've been a Stowers guy for awhile, but he has some very big issues in making the team because Kjerstad and Cowser are ahead of him and they both are left-handed hitting outfielders. Stowers is a streaky hitter who has always produced eventually when he's played everyday. He's a guy who can look totally lost in three PAs, then hit a three run homer in his last PA. I've always liked him because he hits lefties actually better than righties, but the Orioles never used him aganist lefties at the major league level. I felt they misused him at the beginning of last year when he could have rotated between RF and DH and would have been able to play 4-5 times a week, but they buried him, he slumped awfully, then got hurt when he went to AAA. Honestly, I wonder if he was not right when he with the Orioles either because of his slow sprint speed that was well below where he was the year before and what I've see in the minors frim him. I still think Stowers is going to end up a starting major league outfielder for someone, but it's probably not going to be the Orioles. I would like to see Elias try and package him with maybe Norby, and maybe a prospects like Armbruester for a legitimate high impact bullpen arm. the problem is just don't know what team is willing to do that at this point of the offseason. Stowers is going to strike out, but he's also going to draw more walks when he plays everyday and he's going to provide good power. I think he can give avearge RF defense as well if he's healthy and playing everyday. If I was a rebuilding team, Stowers is a guy I would target because he has upside and is blocked here with the Orioles. Stowers and Norby have a lot of upside offensively for a rebuilding team willing to live with the defense.

I don't think he's anywhere near the hitter that Pearce and Valencia (at one time) were though. Nevin is a slow-twitch guy who's main skill to not chase and have good PAs. It's kind of the right-handed version of Vavra at the plate. He can hit lefties a little, but he still doesn't have a lot of pop against them. I mean, if he brought that skill, he might have a potential place. Now could be a potential platoon player with O'Hearn if something happened to Mountcastle, sure, I guess. But both Santander, McCann and even Adley (although it's bee awhile) can play 1B as well, and I'd rather have all three in the lineup over Nevin against lefties.

True, but just because he's listed as an outfielder doesn't mean he won't see some 2B time. I do think his future with the Orioles is not bright though. His lack of speed now, from either injuries or whatever has really hurt his profile. Right now he's basically AAA depth in this organization.

As for the OP, I think Mateo is a lock without injury. He's the utility player that can play SS. The Orioles didn't resign him to cut him. Even if Holliday manages to win a job, I see Mateo making the team. The fact that Mateo can back up CF as well, also provides value.

It does make some sense if he's not, but honestly, what scenario would have him playing 2B for the Orioles this year? Westburg, Urias, Holliday are all in front of him and Mayo is too, with Westburg moving to 2B in that scenario. Plus, the Orioles clearly do not like his defense there.

The lack of spring training invite definitely shows the organization has no role for him this year other than as an emergency backup, and even then he's behind several others. The problem with Vavra is his only good tool is hit tool, and that's mostly his ability to have quality at bats and work counts. He's not a good second baseman and while I haven't seen him enough in the outfield, his statcast data suggests he's not very good out there either. I do think he's playable out there though. But, without power or speed, what is he? I think he's basically Howie Clark and if he's lucky, he'll find an org that will given him some time. It would probably do him well to be released or traded by the Orioles because I just don't see a future for him with the Orioles.

Um, I'm not sure anyone "hates him" I just think anyone who looks it his skills objectively does not see many non-injury related scenarios where it makes sense for him to be on a contending team's roster. He can hit lefties a little bit, but with little power and he's sub par defensively no matter where you play him. He's like Benny Ayala with less pop. Perhaps he's a good, smart guy and a future coach, great. That will give him value in AAA which is where he is ticketed for barring a major disaster this spring.

He has nothing to defend himself against lefties and no strike out pitch. He's Mike Wright at best.

Kjerstad will make this team and will play in RF/DH/1B. There is no need for another infielder with Westburg, Gunnar, Urias, Mateo. Most likely both Kjerstad and O'Hearn make the team though I think they are redundant.

This. The Orioles have drafted very outfield heavy of late and where they have spent bonus money or draft capita on SSs they have turned into busts (Servideo and Young) of late. Obviously the Latin American guys have a long way to go, but right now they are the best SS prospects not named Holliday left in the system. But the OP does bring up a gap in the system right now and that is certainly at SS. Heck, most of the guys listed aren't SS either. The good news is with Gunnar and Holliday, the team should not need a SS any time soon so they have time to develop another legitimate starting SS prospect.

People should know. this place has always been set up that way. People who only live in the majors forum are missing out. Either way, I'm locking this thread since there is one in the correct forum.

I don't know how much they are putting in the Tate basket, but what I do know is he was good, but not great in 2022. He was pretty dominant against righties, but lefties OPS'd .265/.344/.470/.814 off him during his "breakout year." I don't want Tate anywhere close to the 8th inning in a one run lead with lefties coming up. Plus, he's coming off a season where he never was right and never had a surgery to correct anything. I'm going into this season thinking anything they get from him is a bonus vs he's a core guy. If he's a core guy that they are expecting to setup, then I do think the bullpen is going to be a problem in 2024.

Maybe it's because Kjerstad is going into his 25-year old season and has not really turned his plus raw power into consistent game power yet. I'm hopeful that it will, but the truth is he hasn't done it yet.

It's his schtick. Over the top doom and gloom. Most just ignore him by now.

Wells and Baumann are the guys that might be able to become that guy, but both will need a go to strikeout pitch to take that step.

I won't even charge them for the idea!

No doubt I'm going to hate the patch. Those unis were awesome no doubt. I'd love to see that retro look used more often. Hell, I'd still like to see them bring back the all orange unis for a game or two.

I don't understand why Elias would need to "spin" his selection at the time. You don't take a kid 1-1 and give him a record bonus if you don't think he can stick at SS long term. As for misjudging him, I think what we saw last season was on par with the reports. He's move well enough (although he does not have elite quickness), has an average arm that might be slightly below average at the big league level right now, but understands the game and is smart defender overall. I'm not sure I understand the "The development of other players could have changed the plan.". Are you talking about Gunnar showing that he can be a solid average defensive SS? Even if Gunnar has shown that, how does that affect Holliday's ability to play there? I mean, the Orioles might like a Westburg-3B, Gunnar-SS, Holliday-2B infield alignment best at some point this season, but that doesn't necessarily mean Holliday couldn't play SS. It just means the Orioles may decide that's their best defensive alignment with those three players. The one thing I try to remember though is that while Gunnar is a solid average defensive SS right now, he very well could be a plus defender at 3B. As he gets older, and if Holliday shows he can be an average defensive SS, that still very well may end up his defensive home.

No doubt he's the type of kid you bet on to improve because of his love of the game, work ethic, and off season facilities he has available to him at the Holliday compound. I think also people forget that overall, he's a pretty solid defensive player already. Like any 19-year old in his first full minor league season, he has things he needs to get better at offensively (needs to hit less balls on the ground) and defensively (arm strength, getting his body in the right position for throws). I have little doubt when it's all said and done that Holliday will end up at least an average defender at SS, but he could be an above average of even plus defender at 2B. Then again, you can say that about most players who play SS.

I think we'll see more power from Westburg this year as he settles in, and the fact that he can play average to slightly above average 2B and 3B gives him so nice value. Ortiz hits the ball on the ground a little too much and while he can drive the ball, he's not going to be a real home run guy like Westburg should be. But Ortiz gets the defensive value edge significantly because he's going to be a plus defender at any infield position you put him at. I love the fact that Ortiz is going to be a great defensive shortstop and I think he'll outhits his zips projections (.247/.296/.366/.663) but he may be more of a .700-.720 OPS guy in the big leagues with a .750 OPS upside. If he comes close to that offensively, when you combine that with his defense, he's going to be a consistent 2-4 WIN player. I'm just happy for him because starting your career at 26-years old is a bit late, but at least he finally knows he's going to have an everyday job this year with the White Sox. Like you, I'll be rooting for him as well when he's not playing the Orioles.

The trading of Ortiz makes Holliday the only everyday backup to Gunnar at SS. Sure, Mateo is still here but we've seen that his bat just can't hold up, so if God forbid, something happens to Gunnar, I think we'd see Holliday as the everyday SS. I'm looking forward to watching Holliday play defense this year to see the improvements. He's got the tools to be a very good shortstop though the arm strength he showed on some throws suggests he might be better suited to 2B. Sayin that, I would have said the same thing about Volpe with the Yankees with his 28th percentile arm strength but he still ended up a slightly above average defensive SS last year (1 OAA, 58th percentile). I do think Holliday has a slightly better arm though.

Reading Bowden talk trade ideas shows why he's not running a team anymore. Good Lord was he off base all off season on these Orioles trade scenarios. TGFE (Thank God For Elias)