Jammer7

Thanks for reading that very long post. lol

This might be my favorite team as a fan since 1977, maybe. It depends on how they finish. They are not the most talented, but there was largely unproven or immature talent that has progressed well. They came into the year as a bunch of cast offs and underdogs. They take much better at bats than in years past. They are more athletic, dynamic and fun. They catch the ball about as well as I can remember any Orioles team, overall. Mostly, they never quit. They are a flawed bunch, but they will not back down. They are a team, and it shows. Good teams are built up the middle. Mateo is the shining example of development at the major league level, and he did it at SS, the most demanding and important defensive position. The bat is still evolving, but the growth is obvious. Most did not expect Ced to repeat his 30/30 season. He has continued to evolve as a hitter. He is using the whole field more, and working counts better. The defense has been solid, spectacular often. The arm has improved, thanks mostly to keeping his fingers behind the ball. (It seems strange that no one fixed that before 2021, yikes!) Adding Adley has been a huge reason for the overall team improvement. His impact is felt in every corner of the dugout and clubhouse. He is making adjustments on the fly, and in a playoff chase. Mature beyond his years. He has not disappointed me in any way. Santander is showing traits similar to his 2020 season. He has lost a step, and looks less athletic than he did in 2020. Perhaps he bulked up too much, or maybe the leg injuries have taken a toll. The swing decisions have improved greatly and he has managed to stay healthy. (He is starting to evoke memories of Ken Singleton for me.) Hays had a very good first half, and is obviously out of sync right now. The injuries to his hands and wrists are obvious. There is not a tougher man out there in uniform. Diving in, trying to get around and yank everything is killing his numbers. A few nights ago, he drilled a line drive to RF, which was caught. He looked absolutely disgusted. I hope he keeps with a more balanced approach. The bigger issue might be that he is pounding the ball into the ground. His defense is very good. And the guy is an absolute grinder. Sort of a right handed Paul O’Neill for me. Mountcastle is starting to come around again. Out of sync, and caught often in-between, mentally. He started chasing again around the break. If he can keep being more patient, it’s a good sign for us. We need that bat to be productive. I have also noted his defensive improvement. Several diving plays and picks at 1B. Still somewhat of a work in progress, the footwork in particular has been a challenge at times. Urias is a quiet unsung hero of sorts. Solid, if unspectacular, at 3B, sometimes 2B. Sneaky pop, makes me laugh. He hits the ball as hard as anyone on the team. They have gotten him to get the bat head out front and drive balls out to LCF. He has had trouble balancing that with his usual RCF approach, at times. His development and play has been as important to this team as much as any position player not named Adley or Mateo. And then there is Odor. I did not see why Hyde wanted him on this team to start at 2B. I was vocal about it, and I was wrong in some ways. He has been very good defensively. In particular, he has been used in a very challenging way in our shifts. Many MLB 2B cannot do what he has done. I think that is why his OAA and other metrics are down on him. As far as his “cheerleading” or whatever, he has had his value as a leader. On and off the field, he is just that. I give him a lot of credit in the growth of Jorge Mateo, though Mateo deserves much of the credit himself. Odor has helped him in ways few players could have. Odor’s offensive numbers are, well they are offensive. He shows glimpses of hitting line drives to LCF now and then. But he follows that up with swinging with a massive launch angle the next three at bats. Maybe his time has come and gone. Perhaps he has had what impact he could have and it is time to sit and watch Gunnar. But to discount completely what Odor has done for this team, then you do not understand how the game is played at that level. The coaching staff, scouts and analysts are flying under the radar, but they might be the most important component of all of this. All of the little things add up. And these folks do a helluva job! Hat tip. The rotation is over their heads, talent-wise. The pen is seemingly ready to fall apart. The lineup has had trouble scoring runs for the past month. I’m not sure they can sustain themselves through the Wildcard run. The fact that they are playing real meaningful games in September just warms my heart. Whatever happens, just enjoy it. The weird thing for me comes after this season. What becomes of this team? What to do with Henderson, Westburg, Ortiz, Stowers, Vavra and so on? What does this mean for Mateo, Santander, Urias, Hays and probably Ced? I have become attached to some of these lovable underdogs. The way forward to “lift off” is exciting. This is such a highly intelligent non-traditional front office. They have a stable full of talented kids to develop or deal. They have money to spend. It seems like the end of an era, and the beginning of something we have never seen before in Baltimore. Time to win, and for a long time.

I think he rides an emotional roller coaster. Hyde got the best out of him, but Jorge is fragile with his confidence.

I do believe he is dinged up. All of those two seamers in on his hands and wrists have taken a toll. I have said this for two years that he dives in and tries to yank pitches to left far too often. This has been a change I do not like for him. When he first came up, he was hitting balls out to all fields with big power. The plate discipline was poor, and he could not stay healthy. He was destined to be a star. Now, he has stayed on the field, but he has holes that can be exploited. He hits the ball hard, but on the ground far too often. Since getting banged up, he has taken to chasing the slider down and away again. I think Ced hitting for him was more to do with this moment in time, and the situation, rather than an indictment on Hays overall. But he has work to do to get back to the player he was in the first half.

It should prove to a very interesting winter hot stove season as well. The 40 man is about to get really tight if no trades are made to relieve that. Gunnar and Westburg do not need to be protected this winter unless they are called up and added to the 40 man before the end of the year.

It’s been sad to watch. I know some of the kids, and none of them make excuses. But they used to be a cutting edge team, and kids wanted to play for the hometown team. Some were supposed to first round talent and just disappeared over the past few years. Armstrong and Calilao, in particular, were studs with first round tools. I watched them grow up over the years, and scouts’ praise of their tools was effusive. They barely played the past two years. To be fair, HS and college coaches do not get paid to produce pro players. They get paid to win. I think it clear that both goals can be accomplished. Certain programs are still living in the 90’s. There are some players who will not even play HS ball anymore because of this vary thing. It leads to overuse of pitchers and coaches telling kids to change their swings or approaches. Both cases are very detrimental to a promising future for a kid. It’s the ugly side of the game for me. So many talented kids get thrown away.

Word I got was they wanted him to swing more aggressively to drive in runs. They pressed him to do that. The UF staff has some strange practices these days. Many talented kids regressed there the past 2-3 years.

Not that I have seen.

I agree. The only question I have is how much more revenue does Trout bring each year? Beyond butts in seats, merchandising and such?

Sure, I agree. I just do not know where Vavra should play defensively. He is a liability on a good team. The arm is just not there. It actually looks like he doesn’t use his lower half correctly at times.

Vavra is not a MLB 2B. Not on a good team, anyway. That arm just will not play.

Well, not everyone, brother. That arm is poor.

I agree. I’m just not sure. The recent swing decisions he exhibits gives me hope. There is slightly above average power there, and the hands work, but he still needs to improve his approach. He has shortened the swing and I like his load better now. He is generally very pull oriented, but occasionally shows he can go right center. If that can continue, the sky is the limit as long as he lays off the slider off the outside corner. I am cautiously optimistic he can be a .740-.750 OPS guy. But I would not put money on it.

Respectfully, that evidence is weak, at best. We disagree, and that’s cool. Hopefully, it works out soon, either way.

Skill-wise, I don’t think it’s even close in any defensive aspect from what I have seen. His arm is short, but maybe passable at 2B. I do not love the footwork, and the hands are average at best. He only played 24 games in AAA at 2B, about half of his games there. I hope we’re not comparing fielding %, though they are both at .971. Not a great stat to compare them. Hyde wants to win. If he thought Vavra is a better 2B overall, he would be playing him there. Vavra also has to prove he can stay healthy for the full year. He last played a full season in low A ball in 2019. Maybe Hyde deserves the benefit of the doubt about that decision. Maybe they move Odor out. Richie Martin is up, and Arauz is coming back soon. Honestly, not sure why Nevin is still on the roster. I am not sure Odor will stay around as a bench role. The Orioles ask their 2B to do a lot in their shifts. I don’t think Vavra is capable of doing what they have asked Odor to do at the same level. Odor brings a lot of energy each day, while Vavra is more reserved. If Odor is DFA’d, it might be Urias who moves over, but I like him better at 3B. Urias does not bring the same ability, though his arm is solid above average. In a SSS of 48 at bats, I like Vavra’s short swing. I can’t say he shows much power, but gap to gap will work for now. For me, he has a lot to prove as an infielder.

Odor turns a double play much better than most MLB 2B, IMO. Odor’s arm is a grade stronger than Vavra. Odor throws from various angles better as well. That is what I was talking about. Just my observation. In fairness, I have not seen a lot of Vavra at 2B, because Hyde obviously feels better with Odor there. So all I have to go on is limited video. Well, maybe the fact that the organization has played him in the OF so much is a clue as well. Lately, I have been paying a lot more attention to the positioning and the shifts they have on Odor. Along with the impact of what throws he has to make. It is very difficult for the average 2B to play in nearly medium deep RF and throw someone out at 1B. He often makes that play, and I think that the throw he made the other night was of this position. His throw was low, but Mountcastle should have had that pick. Mounty’s footwork was terrible there. I sure he would say so himself. That position flexibility at 2B is a weakness for Vavra. I sure do like his bat and they have to find a way to get him in there. Maybe 2B is it, and they DFA Odor soon. IDK. They will have change the way they shift though.

Good morning. Every player makes errors. Odor is certainly a flawed player, perhaps the most flawed player on the roster. I’m not arguing he is anything else. (Chirinos too.) But he also grinds, and that is something a lot of the younger guys needed to see. There is value there. Perhaps that value has come and gone. I do not actually disagree. I am simply saying he has had an impact, even if the fans don’t see it. Players could say nothing about them, but they make T shirts about Chirinos’ daily sayings and celebrate his impact. Hyde has gone out of his way to mention both of them, even when unsolicited. There is a human factor in every clubhouse. I do not know what would happen if Odor was DFA’d. That may be coming soon. All I said was that if the team faded around the time he was let go, I would hate to be the one that made that decision. Especially considering they already moved Trey and Lopez. Hyde has those guys on the roster for a reason. He believes in what they bring. Actual baseball guys understand the value they bring. Fans, obviously some don’t think so much of it. When all you see is numbers, it’s hard to see what they bring. Look at the impact they have had on others, however that’s tough to prove beyond listening to whom the player credits. The only fact in the entire discussion is that we have a winning record with them so far, which has much exceeded most expectations and the record before they came. This team has been gritty and fun to watch. Whether or not they are still of value, IDK. It may be time for Odor to move on. Perhaps the talk they had with him last week was an honest discussion where they explained things to him. Maybe it is best for the growth of the team as a whole.

Odor has at least three walk off wins by himself. Beside that, many players are being quoted about what a difference these two have made. They lead every day in the preparation the younger guys do. The simple fact is, before they came we were not a winning team. You can say that Adley is the biggest difference maker, and I think that is correct. Chirinos’ effect on the young pitchers, aside from his pitch framing, has been a very good development. Many on the pitching staff credited him early, along with Bemboom and Holt. Maybe the biggest this he does is keep the guys up and appreciate the opportunity they have before them. Odor has been huge at 2B next to Mateo. Several times I have seen Odor pulling Mateo aside and teaching him something after a play. They appear to be pretty close. Odor has been a steadying influence and a mentor to Mateo. His offensive stats are pretty hard to justify, and maybe his time has come. But I do believe he is pretty valuable in the clubhouse. They already traded Trey and Lopez, two very popular guys. If they subtract Odor, it may not matter at this point. But it might to a few players like Mateo and Santander. We have been much better because of them and the impact they have had on their teammates. It’s a team game. The handling of the people side of players matters on winning teams.

We are a very flawed team. It’s easy to point to Odor, and want him gone. Not sure I disagree at this point. But, let’s be honest. Before he and Chirinos arrived, this team was much worse. They were awful. Since they arrived, we are a winning team. That is the only metric that really matters, and they have had a huge impact on that. Vavra is not close to the defender that Odor is, but is he good enough to support him replacing Odor for a much better offensive approach? IDK, maybe he is. If they DFA Odor, will that be an unrecoverable blow for this team in the playoff hunt? IDK. If it might be, should they make that move and take that chance? I wouldn’t want to be that GM. But what do I know. Maybe some of you are right.

Roy, great to see you back on the board. Mateo makes me smile too. It has been a pleasure to watch him begin to tap into his tremendous talent. He is a huge success story. I don’t quite think he is the MVO this year, but not far from it. For me, that is Adley, Ced, Santander or perhaps the entire bullpen. But his rapid growth offensively, steady and spectacular defense and blazing speed make him the most exciting player on the team. He finally got an everyday chance, and making the most of it. I believed he deserved a legitimate shot, and he got it. Great story.

Phillips did not play much for us, strictly a bench role. Stowers should have never come up to sit. He still has many things to improve on, and maybe they felt he was better served playing everyday in Norfolk. Now that he is up, he should be in there 5-6 times a week. It’s possible @wildcard is right. Perhaps they thought Hays would be healthy sooner and that Mountcastle would not struggle the way he did for several weeks. But with the team struggling to hit, they felt the need to DFA Phillips and bring up Stowers. IDK, that makes a little sense to me, but mostly I’m scratching my head.

Like many others here, I’m not sure why Phillips was acquired. It could be that they believe they can fix him, just not at the ML level. Then the DFA now. But then, he isn’t really young, and the upside isn’t much really. And he may not get through waivers. Perhaps they thought he was fixable and now realize he is beyond their help. Maybe it was because they thought they had a deal for one of their OF’s in place, but it fell through. We don’t know what they paid in the transaction beyond the prorated salary. It’s a head scratcher, based on what we know. Maybe Elias made a mistake. Or maybe we just don’t know what was going on behind the scene. Welcome, Kyle!

As bullish as I am on Mateo, I would keep him in the 7 hole. My reasoning is the quality of his at bats has improved where he is. The league will adjust and he’ll have to adjust. I’m not sure I want to raise the pressure level on him just yet. I want to continue to see growth in his swing decisions and approach. That said, if Hyde did move him up as you suggest, I think there are positives in that. He will get pitched to differently. I think there are others having more consistent professional at bats than he is and they are currently in the top of the lineup. I am concerned about Hays, and I might move him down. Not sure if he is still banged up, or what.

I disagree with the OP. Young pitchers are no certain upgrade, even a Grayson or DL. They take time. Grayson has been injured, and the word was he was about to come up when he got the lat, so the criticism seems misguided. I do believe Gunnar will be a star at some point soon, but it’s a lot to ask a 21 year old to come into a playoff race. Manny was an exceptional defender, but the bat was not ready yet. He was simply our best in-house option because they had no other resources to deal for a veteran 3B. I am not at all convinced on Stowers yet. He has a chance to be a solid, if unspectacular, ML regular OF. He will need an adjustment period, and doing that in a playoff race is not a great time. I would argue that Lyles has pitched very well and that he was not overpaid. But you are entitled to your opinion. He has brought great veteran leadership and a penchant for eating innings. They would not be in the WC race without him. And the mentoring he does for the younger pitchers is of great value as well. With all of the good things going on right now, the OP just seemed like a needless shot at Elias, who is trying to build excitement in the fanbase for the remainder of the season and the coming years. It was a very bold statement for Elias, who has been usually much more reserved. And somehow that made you critical of him when we are having an exciting year with a vastly unheralded roster. Please, keep posting. Just don’t expect everyone to agree with you.

Derek Shelton was a hitting coach for Cleveland and Tampa before becoming the skipper for Pittsburg. So, I was wrong. There are several recent examples.