Matusz Optioned To Norfolk After The Game

[Gurgi]

Matusz and Hunter and Arrieta have earned demotions. Only Arrieta has dodged it. But his time is coming.

[CA-ORIOLE]

If you read the two posts directly above my initial post, you'll see that it was really a direct reaction to those two.

As for Tillman, I would have to disagree. I guess my philosophy is just that to rip into any pitcher for one start is pretty absurd. If Chris Tillman comes up and throws 5 consecutive bad outings, fine, condemn him. But if he comes up and throws one, two, even three bad starts he'll still deserve more time to be judged properly. There's no reason his past failures--especially on teams that weren't any good anyways--should be held against him, especially considering he's a lot different pitcher now (more MPH on his FB, better command) than he was before. Just as there's no reason BRob should be given a pass for his putrid hitting just because he produced 5 pretty stellar seasons for us.

Tillman has had 36 ML starts, most of them bad. If he comes up and stinks, especially if it's the same old act, I have no problems with people ripping on him. Yes, if he looks improved, I'll give him more slack, just as I and a lot of others had given Matusz a much longer leash this year. I'll give Brob a bit more slack, and don't really like the analogy. I don't like the Brob situation either.

[Flash- bd]

Matusz and Hunter and Arrieta have earned demotions. Only Arrieta has dodged it. But his time is coming.

Here's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. What does Arrieta have to do with Matusz and Hunter? Yet he says it so sure, without even a semblance of analysis.

RZNJ, I'd disagree on Tillman. He hasn't thrown as hard as he is now since 2009, and he was 21 years old at the time. 3 years makes a big difference in maturity, especially when you're starting as a 21 year old kid. (Even then he put up an ERA+ of 85, which, frankly, we'd take right now.) That, for me, means different pitcher. If you bring him up, it's silly not to give him a little slack. Anything under 5 starts is a pretty damn small sample size.

(Also, he's got a 2.88 ERA over his last 10 starts--basically at 2009 levels. Also, as Lucky Jim would point out, that # should be lower given he pitched 5 innings of 4 run ball in a torrential rainstorm which should've been called. All the same, he has a 66/15 K:BB ratio over that time. )

[SteveO]

I'm totally for Matusz being sent down. I stated I would not be against seeing him sent down after his last start.

What I'm against is that Matusz and Arietta are punished for the fact that they brought people's hopes up in the first place. I also take offense to the fact that people complain extra about Arrieta after Matusz's bad start, as if they are somehow related, even though Arrieta pitched 2 days ago and even though it would be really silly at this point to take him out of the rotation.

No doubt Britton and Tillman will get similarly vicious treatment on here should they fail upon being called up.

EDIT: to the above two posters: I'm not sure how you got the idea I was talking about Matusz when I started the sentence with the words "Britton and Tillman"...

Really?? So its unreasonable for fans to be frustrated with a guy who was a top 5 pick in the draft and by his own admission was not in playing condition last season and really has shown only marginal improvement this season? Honestly if I were DD I would do my absolute best to sell him as a guy who needs a change of scenery and and try to package him for whatever you can get. If he is not a headcase, primadona and lazy, then he sure is doing one helluva good imitation of one. The fans have a right to be frustrated and dissapointed. He opened that door with his lack of work ethic in the past. I think fans wrap their hopes up in these guys (Arrieta, Matusz and others) but have a hard time separating that emotion from actual on the field performance. Nothing either Arrieta or Matusz has done has shown they belong at the MLB level right now.

Far as Arrieta is concerned I am so tired of people talking about his "great stuff" and "live arm" when the dude has not a clue in the world how to pitch at the big league level. He has shown absolutely nothing that proves he should be here on a team that wants to compete. Any pitcher can throw a good game here and there...its the law of averages at play. The stats don't lie

2010 6-6 4.66 ERA 1.53 WHIP

2011 10-8 5.05 ERA 1.46WHIP

2012 3-9 5.81 ERA 1.38 WHIP

Clearly he is at the very least not progressing and at worst is actually regressing. I like Arrieta ...I really do but I would like him a lot more at AAA until he shows he can pitch consistently enough to win and consistently enough to get through 6 innings on average. Its time to pull the plug and let him go to AAA and learn to pitch or consider moving him also if you can get value (which is doubtful but you never know it takes one team that likes him). Far as those who say there are not better options.... that's arguable but I would suggest I would rather have these 2 in particular at AAA learning than getting consistently crushed up here.

[alaniee]

Matusz earned 1.3 million last year and again this year is earning 1.3 million.

Arrieta is in the 400Ks. Tillman is in the 400Ks. Britton is in the 400Ks as well.

Why did this happen? Did they think Matusz was going to be really really good much better than the other three? Is there a reason why he's earning so much more than the others?

I am disappointed with Matusz big time. Arrieta isn't far behind. Tillman and Britton I thought would be doing better this far in their career but I am hoping they come up to the MLB team and do well this year....

Edit: Just realized it... Matusz must be because of being a 1st round pick #4. Ouch that bites. I had forgotten that he was a #4 pick lol wow he has really gone downhill these last few years. Is there something wrong with our organization developing pitchers??? Is that possible a reason why we traded away Kyle Simon after drafting him last year...

[CA-ORIOLE]

Here's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. What does Arrieta have to do with Matusz and Hunter? Yet he says it so sure, without even a semblance of analysis.

I'm not sure about Gurgi's postings with respect to any of those pitchers, or the context here. But you're not saying there hasn't been plenty of reasoned and in-depth analysis with respect to all three of those pitchers on this board. Most of them have been argued to death. In Arrieta's case, it's been argued that his peripherals show improvement and he's been unlucky to some degree this year, there is also plenty of reason to question that line of thinking. I certainly have.

Look, I understand that young pitchers need to be shown patience, but at some point point the pitchers have to produce. I generally consider myself on the patient side, but I'm quite frankly getting tired of the excuses, the lack of execution, and the poor performances. Most of these guys have have had enough time that they should be doing better. A lot better.

[SteveO]

Fair enough, I guess it could be interpreted that way, but it doesn't take a genius to know Matusz has had more than one bad start, or Jake for that matter. That said, if I recall correctly I do remember the criticism of Matusz being pretty fierce after his first start of the year...

What I meant to say is that Tillman/Britton will be similarly eviscerated if/when they come up and make a bad start. For Britton it will be: "when's the last time he was good? Even before his injury he hasn't been effective forever. Just another failed of the cavalry. Send him down with his pals Jake and Matusz!" For Tillman it will be: "Same ol' Tillman, why do we even bother?"

Yea your right they will be criticized ... though I think Britton has a longer leash. The reality is that this is not "one" bad year. Arrieta has never put up good numbers at the MLB level. Matusz put up a decent half season. Tillman has done nothing (but is at least working on it were he belongs for now). Britton has a longer leash but I hope they wait till he is really really ready to pitch at this level.

Far as the criticism that's what happens when you do not produce, people clamor for players who can. Are we all supposed to just be appreciative of the fact they are trying real hard lol????? Its about winning and putting up stats. These guys get paid big money to play this game and its not unreasonable for fans to expect some return from them or to start calling for the next guy to step up if they cant produce. Thats just reality man.

[Flash- bd]

Really?? So its unreasonable for fans to be frustrated with a guy who was a top 5 pick in the draft and by his own admission was not in playing condition last season and really has shown only marginal improvement this season? 1) Honestly if I were DD I would do my absolute best to sell him as a guy who needs a change of scenery and and try to package him for whatever you can get. 2) If he is not a headcase, primadona and lazy, then he sure is doing one helluva good imitation of one. The fans have a right to be frustrated and dissapointed. He opened that door with his lack of work ethic in the past. 3) I think fans wrap their hopes up in these guys (Arrieta, Matusz and others) but have a hard time separating that emotion from actual on the field performance. Nothing either Arrieta or Matusz has done has shown they belong at the MLB level right now.

Far as Arrieta is concerned I am so tired of people talking about his "great stuff" and "live arm" when the dude has not a clue in the world how to pitch at the big league level. He has shown absolutely nothing that proves he should be here on a team that wants to compete. Any pitcher can throw a good game here and there...its the law of averages at play. The stats don't lie

2010 6-6 4.66 ERA 1.53 WHIP

2011 10-8 5.05 ERA 1.46WHIP

2012 3-9 5.81 ERA 1.38 WHIP

4)Clearly he is at the very least not progressing and at worst is actually regressing. I like Arrieta ...I really do but I would like him a lot more at AAA until he shows he can pitch consistently enough to win and consistently enough to get through 6 innings on average. Its time to pull the plug and let him go to AAA and learn to pitch or consider moving him also if you can get value (which is doubtful but you never know it takes one team that likes him). Far as those who say there are not better options.... that's arguable but I would suggest I would rather have these 2 in particular at AAA learning than getting consistently crushed up here.

1) Glad you're not DD.

2) Thanks for providing another example of the kind of frivolous moral condemnation people turn to when they can't think of any other way to explain things.

3) Couldn't agree more.

4) There's a lot of stats/reasons why this statement is a silly one, and they've all been discussed at length on this board.

[baltfan]

There is a new sheriff in town. Buck up or get out. Hopefully these guys get the message and get their acts together.

[MrOrange82]

Clearly [Arrieta] is at the very least not progressing and at worst is actually regressing. I like Arrieta ...I really do but I would like him a lot more at AAA until he shows he can pitch consistently enough to win and consistently enough to get through 6 innings on average. Its time to pull the plug and let him go to AAA and learn to pitch or consider moving him also if you can get value (which is doubtful but you never know it takes one team that likes him). Far as those who say there are not better options.... that's arguable but I would suggest I would rather have these 2 in particular at AAA learning than getting consistently crushed up here.

What I'm getting sick of is people talking about how Arrieta's advanced stats are good (particularly xFIP) and way out of line with his results.

Arrieta's made 17 starts this year. He's given up four or more runs in 11 of those starts. He's given up five or more runs in 6 of those starts. He's managed to last six or more innings in just 9 of his 17 starts.

Honestly, I don't care that his strikeouts are up, walks down, etc. His results stink. Whether it's due to bad luck, bad wiring, or something else...he's been bad overall.

[Austin]

There's a lot of stats/reasons why this statement is a silly one, and they've all been discussed at length on this board.

Why is it silly to say that Matusz isn't progressing? Yeah, his ERA isn't 10+ like last year but 5.24 isn't exactly great for your 4th season in the majors.

[SteveO]

I'm not sure about Gurgi's postings with respect to any of those pitchers, or the context here. But you're not saying there hasn't been plenty of reasoned and in-depth analysis with respect to all three of those pitchers on this board. Most of them have been argued to death. In Arrieta's case, it's been argued that his peripherals show improvement and he's been unlucky to some degree this year, there is also plenty of reason to question that line of thinking. I certainly have.

Look, I understand that young pitchers need to be shown patience, but at some point point the pitchers have to produce. I generally consider myself on patient side, but I'm quite frankly getting tired of the excuses, the lack of execution, and the poor performances. Most of these guys have have had enough time that they should be doing better. A lot better.

Agreed! I am all for patience but that does not mean it has to occur at the major league level. If they cannot produce wins, stats or any meaningful contribution then they need to hone their craft at the AAA level till they can. Winning organizations do not generally have guys around who cant win....period the end. So far Matusz, Tillman and Arrieta have shown nothing that proves they can win at this level and need to take a step back until such time as they do. Since when did the MLB club become a developmental pitching squad? Chen and Hammel may not have the kind of talent those three have but they do know how to pitch, I will take 5 guys like that over potential anyday. Don't get me wrong guys with potential are great but until potential turns into real world results....they need to stay were potential should be ...in the minors.

[SrMeowMeow]

What I'm getting sick of is people talking about how Arrieta's advanced stats are good (particularly xFIP) and way out of line with his results.

Arrieta's made 17 starts this year. He's given up four or more runs in 11 of those starts. He's given up five or more runs in 6 of those starts. He's managed to last six or more innings in just 9 of his 17 starts.

Honestly, I don't care that his strikeouts are up, walks down, etc. His results stink. Whether it's due to bad luck, bad wiring, or something else...he's been bad overall.

Uh, that's the whole point of advanced stats. To show perspectives that aren't immediately obvious. Of course Arrieta's given up a lot of runs. That's what ERA shows. His is bad. His FIP is a lot better. That indicates that he may be the victim of some bad situational karma. You're basically using his high ERA as evidence that his low FIP is bogus, when the whole point of FIP is to highlight pitchers who may be pitching better than their results show.

[MrOrange82]

Uh, that's the whole point of advanced stats. To show perspectives that aren't immediately obvious. Of course Arrieta's given up a lot of runs. That's what ERA shows. His is bad. His FIP is a lot better. That indicates that he may be the victim of some bad situational karma. You're basically using his high ERA as evidence that his low FIP is bogus, when the whole point of FIP is to highlight pitchers who may be pitching better than their results show.

No...the point is that results are what they are. The standings don't give a ---- about FIP, xFIP, or anything else. If he'd been pitching fairly well overall, and perhaps gotten a bit unlucky, it'd be easier to patient. But, to anyone who's watched his outings (and I've seen every one), it's painfully obvious that he's prone to 3-5 inning flashes of brilliance followed by falling apart at the slightest provocation.

I'm not using ERA to reflect anything other than the obvious. Arrieta's results have been extremely poor, and the O's, more often than not, have found themselves on the losing ends of things when he starts.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Agreed! I am all for patience but that does not mean it has to occur at the major league level. If they cannot produce wins, stats or any meaningful contribution then they need to hone their craft at the AAA level till they can. Winning organizations do not generally have guys around who cant win....period the end. So far Matusz, Tillman and Arrieta have shown nothing that proves they can win at this level and need to take a step back until such time as they do. Since when did the MLB club become a developmental pitching squad? Chen and Hammel may not have the kind of talent those three have but they do know how to pitch, I will take 5 guys like that over potential anyday. Don't get me wrong guys with potential are great but until potential turns into real world results....they need to stay were potential should be ...in the minors.

Well, I may not have as much of an issue testing these guys at the ML level and accepting some level of failure as maybe you do. The problem is that the failure is across the board and horrific. These guys are running out of options and opportunities, and keeping them on the roster just makes us more inflexible when they don't have options. The situation with this group of young pitchers is hugely disappointing. It's devastating, really. Especially when we have placed so much time and resources into them. I don't know what the answer is, but rationalizing their failure isn't it. We may have to look at this completely different. As you said, guys like Chen and Hammel were acquired fairly easily and have been effective.