Jump to content

2017 Hall of Fame Vote/Tracker


weams

Recommended Posts

Just now, Palmoripken said:

I do hope Thome makes it when he's eligible. He was always one of my favorite non-O's. What's funny is my first memory of him is being interviewed on Roy Firestone's Up Close. Never thought that seventeen years later I'd be rooting for him in an Oriole uniform along with Roy. He just seems like such a down to earth guy.  I'll admit that Thome didn't have much defensive value but he could hit and man I loved his stance. Too bad about Hoffman and Vlad just missing it this year but they should make it next year. Congrats to Pudge- IMO the best catcher ever, Bagwell- another guy with a funky stance and a rarity in that he was a 1B that could steal, and Raines- finally gets his due and was a great leadoff man for many years and also the beneficiary of a cool moment with his son his brief time with the O's.

Pudge was a great catcher, but I'd argue Johnny Bench or Yogi Berra would be the GOAT. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 88
  • Created
  • Last Reply
58 minutes ago, MDtransplant757 said:

Pudge was a great catcher, but I'd argue Johnny Bench or Yogi Berra would be the GOAT. 

Josh Gibson.

But among MLB players, definitely Bench.

Mickey Cochrane only had a "short" 13-year career but he deserves mention.

...and of course the even shorter 10-year career of Roy Campanella.

I-Rod has about the same career length and value as Gary Carter and Carlton Fisk.  All in that mix behind #1.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

Basically, what stands out about Vlad is his ability to hit pitches nowhere near the strike zone.    

I'm not saying that Vlad shouldn't get in to the Hall of Fame, I'm just saying he's not an obvious shoe-in on the merits.    But I do agree he'll likely get in next year, having come this close on his first try.  

Vlad is the opposite of a "sabermetric darling".

Still a Hall of Famer though.  The median Hall of Fame RF is probably Dave Winfield -- Guerrero's career certainly holds up to that.

So, he has the benefit of both old school and new school votes and will be ushered in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

Dwight Evans had one of the two best throwing arms I ever saw in RF, the other being Clemente.   He also was a high OBP guy in the years before that skill was really appreciated.   He walked over 100 times in three seasons and over 95 in three others.   I don't think he got any serious consideration for the Hall of Fame, but he probably should have.  

67 rWAR, eight gold gloves, MVP votes in five seasons, worth 6.7 wins in 108 games in the strike year of '81.  Peaked at 10% in HOF balloting in '99, dropped off in three years.  In '99 he was out-polled by Bob Boone, Mickey Lolich and Dave Parker.  Oh, and his teammate Jim Rice, most feared hitter in history with a sub-800 road OPS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

67 rWAR, eight gold gloves, MVP votes in five seasons, worth 6.7 wins in 108 games in the strike year of '81.  Peaked at 10% in HOF balloting in '99, dropped off in three years.  In '99 he was out-polled by Bob Boone, Mickey Lolich and Dave Parker.  Oh, and his teammate Jim Rice, most feared hitter in history with a sub-800 road OPS.

Rice was just the Hall's way of putting Boggs in twice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

Vlad is the opposite of a "sabermetric darling".

Still a Hall of Famer though.  The median Hall of Fame RF is probably Dave Winfield -- Guerrero's career certainly holds up to that.

So, he has the benefit of both old school and new school votes and will be ushered in.

There's a problem with defining the average HOF RFer, maybe worse than at most other positions.  If you go by rWAR the top 14 RFers are in (with the exceptions of Larry Walker and Joe Jackson).  But then #s 19, 24-26, 29, 30, 32, 33 and 36 are in along with 42 and 68.  The average HOF RFer's rWAR is 73, but with a range of 32 to 163.  Winfield is actually 10 wins shy of average, and six wins shy of the positional average for peak seven seasons. Vlad is right in line with Winfield, three spots and about four wins behind in rWAR.

Reggie Smith got MVP votes in seven seasons, played in seven all star games, and had essentially the same career as Winfield right down to rWAR and JAWS.  He got 0.7% of the vote his one year on the ballot.

A player who almost exactly matches the HOF averages for RF in rWAR, best seven, and JAWS is Larry Walker.  Harry Heilmann and Paul Waner are also very close, along with Reggie Jackson and Sam Crawford.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

67 rWAR, eight gold gloves, MVP votes in five seasons, worth 6.7 wins in 108 games in the strike year of '81.  Peaked at 10% in HOF balloting in '99, dropped off in three years.  In '99 he was out-polled by Bob Boone, Mickey Lolich and Dave Parker.  Oh, and his teammate Jim Rice, most feared hitter in history with a sub-800 road OPS.

There's no question that, at the time, Rice was by far the more feared hitter of the two.   That may seem odd looking through the lens of modern statistics (OPS+ of 128 for Rice, 127 for Evans), but that's the way folks saw it at the time.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, MDtransplant757 said:

Pudge was a great catcher, but I'd argue Johnny Bench or Yogi Berra would be the GOAT. 

No love for Ray Schalk?  

Ray Schalk is in the Hall because he was a 1919 Black Sox who didn't help throw the Series.  He was about 5% better than Rick Dempsey, but as far as I know he never said goofy things on TV.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

There's no question that, at the time, Rice was by far the more feared hitter of the two.   That may seem odd looking through the lens of modern statistics (OPS+ of 128 for Rice, 127 for Evans), but that's the way folks saw it at the time.  

Yes, in 1977 nobody quite grasped park effects.  Or walks.  Or that RBI are dramatically influenced by Dwight Evans getting on base in front of you all the time.

I just wish Denver could have gotten an expansion team in 1962 so half of the HOF batters from 1975-1995 could have been Rockies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, 25 Nuggets said:

Josh Gibson.

But among MLB players, definitely Bench.

Mickey Cochrane only had a "short" 13-year career but he deserves mention.

...and of course the even shorter 10-year career of Roy Campanella.

I-Rod has about the same career length and value as Gary Carter and Carlton Fisk.  All in that mix behind #1.

Bench is the consensus choice by both numbers and acclaim.  Nobody really makes a case for Gary Carter, but he's not too far back.

Circa 1920 a lot of people would say Buck Ewing, who was mostly a catcher, was the best player ever at any position.  Ewing did play many seasons with schedules under 100 games, and if you scale his rWAR to Bench's games played Ewing comes out ahead.  But that's not really apples-to-apples, with the scaling and the fact catching was quite different in many ways 125 years ago.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Reggie Smith got MVP votes in seven seasons, played in seven all star games, and had essentially the same career as Winfield right down to rWAR and JAWS.  He got 0.7% of the vote his one year on the ballot.

Like it or not, Smith just didn't have the counting stats that Winfield did.     He barely cracked 2,000 hits.    He was a great hitter but missed a lot of games.    I'm actually surprised his WAR total is as high as it is.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Like it or not, Smith just didn't have the counting stats that Winfield did.     He barely cracked 2,000 hits.    He was a great hitter but missed a lot of games.    I'm actually surprised his WAR total is as high as it is.   

He was Fred Lynn without quite the two-year peak but better overall offense and glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

He was Fred Lynn without quite the two-year peak but better overall offense and glove.

Another reason Rice and Lynn get so much attention is that their rookie year was quite amazing.   It isn't often that two rookies bat .300, knock in 100 runs each and lead their team to the World Series.     That made quite a first impression.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Another reason Rice and Lynn get so much attention is that their rookie year was quite amazing.   It isn't often that two rookies bat .300, knock in 100 runs each and lead their team to the World Series.     That made quite a first impression.   

Which makes it even more interesting that Rice is in the HOF while Lynn fell off the ballot after two years of almost no support.  Lynn only played about 100 fewer games, very similar slash lines and OPS+, played in one more AS game, won that '75 ROY/MVP over Rice, and should have won a 2nd MVP in '79 (one of the worst votes ever).

Rice took a long time to go in, but always had vastly more support than Lynn.  

Probably comes down to three things: Lynn was injury prone.  HR/RBI favored Rice.  And while Rice stayed in Fenway, Lynn went to pitcher's parks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.




  • Posts

    • dWAR is just the run value for defense added with the defensive adjustment.  Corner OF spots have a -7.5 run adjustment, while CF has a +2.5 adjustment over 150 games.    Since Cowser played both CF and the corners they pro-rate his time at each to calculate his defensive adjustment. 
    • Just to be clear, though, fWAR also includes a substantial adjustment for position, including a negative one for Cowser.  For a clearer example on that front, as the chart posted higher on this page indicates, Carlos Santana had a +14 OAA — which is the source data that fWAR’s defensive component is based on. That 14 outs above average equates to 11-12 (they use different values on this for some reason) runs better than the average 1B.  So does Santana have a 12.0 defensive value, per fWAR? He does not. That’s because they adjust his defensive value downward to reflect that he’s playing a less difficult/valuable position. In this case, that adjustment comes out to -11.0 runs, as you can see here:   So despite apparently having a bona fide Gold Glove season, Santana’s Fielding Runs value (FanGraphs’ equivalent to dWAR) is barely above average, at 1.1 runs.    Any good WAR calculation is going to adjust for position. Being a good 1B just isn’t worth as much as being an average SS or catcher. Just as being a good LF isn’t worth as much as being an average CF. Every outfielder can play LF — only the best outfielders can play CF.  Where the nuance/context shows up here is with Cowser’s unique situation. Playing LF in OPACY, with all that ground to cover, is not the same as playing LF at Fenway or Yankee Stadium. Treating Cowser’s “position” as equivalent to Tyler O’Neill’s, for example, is not fair. The degree of difficulty is much, much higher at OPACY’s LF, and so the adjustment seems out of whack for him. That’s the one place where I’d say the bWAR value is “unfair” to Cowser.
    • Wait a second here, the reason he's -0.1 in bb-ref dwar is because they're using drs to track his defensive run value.  He's worth 6.6 runs in defense according to fangraphs, which includes adjustments for position, which would give him a fangraphs defensive war of +0.7.
    • A little funny to have provided descriptions of the hits (“weak” single; “500 foot” HR). FIP doesn’t care about any of that either, so it’s kind of an odd thing to add in an effort to make ERA look bad.  Come in, strike out the first hitter, then give up three 108 MPH rocket doubles off the wall. FIP thinks you were absolutely outstanding, and it’s a shame your pathetic defense and/or sheer bad luck let you down. Next time you’ll (probably) get the outcomes you deserve. They’re both flawed. So is xFIP. So is SIERA. So is RA/9. So is WPA. So is xERA. None of them are perfect measures of how a pitcher’s actual performance was, because there’s way too much context and too many variables for any one metric to really encompass.  But when I’m thinking about awards, for me at least, it ends up having to be about the actual outcomes. I don’t really care what a hitter’s xWOBA is when I’m thinking about MVP, and the same is true for pitchers. Did you get the outs? Did the runs score? That’s the “value” that translates to the scoreboard and, ultimately, to the standings. So I think the B-R side of it is more sensible for awards.  I definitely take into account the types of factors that you (and other pitching fWAR advocates) reference as flaws. So if a guy plays in front of a particular bad defense or had a particularly high percentage of inherited runners score, I’d absolutely adjust my take to incorporate that info. And I also 100% go to Fangraphs first when I’m trying to figure out which pitchers we should acquire (i.e., for forward looking purposes).  But I just can’t bring myself say that my Cy Young is just whichever guy had the best ratio of Ks to BBs to HRs over a threshold number of innings. As @Frobby said, it just distills out too much of what actually happened.
    • We were all a lot younger in 2005.  No one wanted to believe Canseco cause he’s a smarmy guy. Like I said, he was the only one telling the truth. It wasn’t a leap of faith to see McGwire up there and Sosa up there and think “yeah, those guys were juicing” but then suddenly look at Raffy and think he was completely innocent.  It’s a sad story. The guy should be in Hall of Fame yet 500 homers and 3,000 hits are gone like a fart in the wind cause his legacy is wagging his finger and thinking he couldn’t get caught.  Don’t fly too close to the sun.  
    • I think if we get the fun sprinkler loving Gunnar that was in the dugout yesterday, I don’t think we have to worry about him pressing. He seemed loose and feeling good with the other guys he was with, like Kremer.
    • I was a lot younger back then, but that betrayal hit really hard because he had been painting himself as literally holier than thou, and shook his finger to a congressional committee and then barely 2 weeks later failed the test.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...