Roch: Bundy Likes Working with the Spitter

[24fps]

18 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

Player ignoring coaches advice is always good guidance to tell them. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course, that wasn't the intent of the article, Bundy enjoys working with the pitching coach, good, for him.

Lets see how many ways we can twist this topic and see what spins out.

Since at least Duquette's arrival, there has been an organizational policy discouraging minor league pitchers from throwing the cutter.  Color me unimpressed with the results.  I'm happy if Bundy is happy with McDowell.  I'm also happy if Bundy's not happy with McDowell but trusts whatever was responsible for last year's success going forward.

What I'm not happy with is a continuation of the philosophy that was responsible for turning Arrieta into the scrap heap pitcher he had become when he was traded.  Hopefully all that's now in the past.

[Redskins Rick]

Just now, 24fps said:

Since at least Duquette's arrival, there has been an organizational policy discouraging minor league pitchers from throwing the cutter.  Color me unimpressed with the results.  I'm happy if Bundy is happy with McDowell.  I'm also happy if Bundy's not happy with McDowell but trusts whatever was responsible for last year's success going forward.

What I'm not happy with is a continuation of the philosophy that was responsible for turning Arrieta into the scrap heap pitcher he had become when he was traded.  Hopefully all that's now in the past.

Fangraphs had this, back in 2012:

Quote

Duquette states that developing the cutter takes away from time spent developing better pitches, but also that throwing the cutter leads to lowered arm strength and less fastball velocity. In an excellent article on Baseball America ($), Ben Badler did find many scouts that agreed with this sentiment.

Quote

No matter what, Badler found that most agree that there isn’t a team that teaches the cutter on an organization-wide basis

So, according to fangraphs, its not a DD thing.

[Il BuonO]

41 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

Fangraphs had this, back in 2012:

So, according to fangraphs, its not a DD thing.

It’s one thing for an organization not to teach a pitch and quite another to discourage it being thrown by someone who already uses it in their repertoire.

[Redskins Rick]

Just now, Il BuonO said:

It’s one thing for an organization not to teach a pitch and quite another to discourage it being thrown by someone who already uses it in their repertoire.

This is a widely held opinion in MLB.

[Il BuonO]

23 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

This is a widely held opinion in MLB.

You’re misquoting the very article you linked. Some organizations hold with that. 

If a pitcher throws a cutter with the same delivery and the same extension as a fastball, then there is little harm in throwing the pitch. But when a pitcher starts tilting his body, getting on the side of the baseball (with his grip) or cutting off his follow-through, then problems can start piling up.

Rick Knapp, the Tigers pitching coach, believes in a properly thrown cutter, partly because he wants his pitchers to always keep thinking of ways to make the ball do different things.

....

"To me manipulating the baseball is a part of pitching," he said. "It's very dangerous to tell a player anytime to not experiment with manipulating the ball. Anytime you detract from a player learning how to manipulate the ball, you take away his creativity."

As Knapp explains, if you talk to 100 pitching coaches you may get 100 different answers about the cutter. That's why it may take another decade to determine if the cut fastball is the split-finger pitch of the present, or a pitch with staying power.

 

 

[LookitsPuck]

57 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

It’s one thing for an organization not to teach a pitch and quite another to discourage it being thrown by someone who already uses it in their repertoire.

Exactly this. Jake Arrieta and Dylan Bundy, come on down.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

Exactly this. Jake Arrieta and Dylan Bundy, come on down.

How does Bundy qualify?

He was dominant in the minors without his cutter.  Why in the world would he ever bother to throw a change-up if he was allowed to use his cutter?  It is not at all uncommon for teams to take a pitch away from someone in the minors so they have to develop their other pitches.

His not using the cutter in 2016 was his own choice.

He used the cutter in 2017.

[Il BuonO]

13 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

How does Bundy qualify?

He was dominant in the minors without his cutter.  Why in the world would he ever bother to throw a change-up if he was allowed to use his cutter?  It is not at all uncommon for teams to take a pitch away from someone in the minors so they have to develop their other pitches.

His not using the cutter in 2016 was his own choice.

He used the cutter in 2017.

Because it’s an entirely different pitch, not off speed if thrown correctly. And he’s smart enough to realize that he needs a solid CH to compete vs ML hitters.

You don’t believe he was influenced in his decision not to use that pitch? From everything I’ve seen, I’d say he’s quite capable of learning a CH while still throwing the cutter. 

[Can_of_corn]

10 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

Because it’s an entirely different pitch, not off speed if thrown correctly. And he’s smart enough to realize that he needs a solid CH to compete vs ML hitters.

You don’t believe he was influenced in his decision not to use that pitch? From everything I’ve seen, I’d say he’s quite capable of learning a CH while still throwing the cutter. 

Yea, sorry, not the least bit worried about teams taking a particular pitch off the table for guys in the minors to help facilitate them refining other pitches.

As for him being smart?  Well he did volunteer to pitch both ends of a double header just a year or so prior.

[Il BuonO]

8 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Yea, sorry, not the least bit worried about teams taking a particular pitch off the table for guys in the minors to help facilitate them refining other pitches.

As for him being smart?  Well he did volunteer to pitch both ends of a double header just a year or so prior.

Lol, ok. I am glad they let him resume throwing it or he changed the name of what he’s throwing to a slider.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

Lol, ok. I am glad they let him resume throwing it or he changed the name of what he’s throwing to a slider.

He shelved it in 2016.  Unless you think he was lying about it.  Heck he was throwing it in the AFL in 2015.

But whatever don't let fact get in the way of a good narrative. 

(BTW he threw it in the majors in 2012).

[Il BuonO]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

He shelved it in 2016.  Unless you think he was lying about it.  Heck he was throwing it in the AFL in 2015.

But whatever don't let fact get in the way of a good narrative. 

(BTW he threw it in the majors in 2012).

What fact is that? I never said he continued to throw it, so not really sure why you’re flying off. Are you saying he wasn’t throwing either a slider or a cutter last year?

[Can_of_corn]

22 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

What fact is that? I never said he continued to throw it, so not really sure why you’re flying off. Are you saying he wasn’t throwing either a slider or a cutter last year?

He was mostly certainly throwing a cutter/baby slider/slider last year.

What I am saying is that the O's only forbade him to throw that pitch while he was pitching in the minors in 2012.  Regardless of how they feel about cutters they only took it away from Bundy for a short period of time and it is not uncommon to take a pitch away from a guy in the minors to try and force development of other pitches.

 

[Il BuonO]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

He was mostly certainly throwing a cutter/baby slider/slider last year.

What I am saying is that the O's only forbade him to throw that pitch while he was pitching in the minors in 2012.  Regardless of how they feel about cutters they only took it away from Bundy for a short period of time and it is not uncommon to take a pitch away from a guy in the minors to try and force development of other pitches.

 

And I never made an assertion to the contrary. 

What exactly was the narrative I was pushing? I had disagreed with the idea that it’s widely accepted throughout MLB that teams discouraged throwing cutters. Even the piece from 2010 didn’t claim that.

In the first paragraph, “some coaches”. And in the second “Instead it is usually case by case when it could work for a specific pitcher.” And I thought the previous quotes by former Tigers pitching coach applied. I agree with all of that while recognizing it’s not uncommon for teams to ask pitchers to shelve a certain pitch.

Anything else?

The concern about whether the cut fastball is a help or a hindrance explains why some coaches are uneasy about teaching the pitch. As they see it, the risk of ruining a good arm outweighs the payoff of adding a useful third or fourth pitch.

That also explains why there isn't really a team in baseball that teaches the cutter to most of its pitchers on an organization-wide basis. Instead it is usually applied case by case when it could work with a specific pitcher. Every starting pitcher in most organizations is told to develop a changeup, but no one mandates that everyone learn the cutter.

 

[Can_of_corn]

I was originally responding to Puck.  You had issue with what I posted, not the other way around.  I don't think Bundy was a victim of the anti-cutter group within the Orioles.