Mateo's Bottom of the Eighth (Infield in 2023 talk)

[Pickles]

I just really think it's worth noting Jorge Mateo's performance in the bottom of the eighth inning last night.  He made three defensive plays, ranging from nice to spectacular, to record all three outs and save the Orioles at least two runs, likely several more.  He had Jim Palmer, an expert if there ever was one, waxing poetic about Mateo's defensive ability, calling it "as good as it gets" and specifically conjuring up the names Aparicio, Belanger, and Ripken.  I include the link to the final out.

https://www.mlb.com/video/akil-baddoo-lines-out-to-shortstop-jorge-mateo?cp=MIXED&p=0&q=TeamId %3D [110] Order By Timestamp DESC

It seems to me a lot of people are eager to move on from Mateo.  There are options, and he isn't a perfect player by any means.  However, in my opinion, the turn around this year has largely been predicated on run prevention, and Jorge Mateo playing GG SS has been a huge part of that.

[RZNJ]

5 minutes ago, Pickles said:

I just really think it's worth noting Jorge Mateo's performance in the bottom of the eighth inning last night.  He made three defensive plays, ranging from nice to spectacular, to record all three outs and save the Orioles at least two runs, likely several more.  He had Jim Palmer, an expert if there ever was one, waxing poetic about Mateo's defensive ability, calling it "as good as it gets" and specifically conjuring up the names Aparicio, Belanger, and Ripken.  I include the link to the final out.

https://www.mlb.com/video/akil-baddoo-lines-out-to-shortstop-jorge-mateo?cp=MIXED&p=0&q=TeamId %3D [110] Order By Timestamp DESC

It seems to me a lot of people are eager to move on from Mateo.  There are options, and he isn't a perfect player by any means.  However, in my opinion, the turn around this year has largely been predicated on run prevention, and Jorge Mateo playing GG SS has been a huge part of that.

Tough call.   I could see sticking with Mateo and hoping the offense is no worse than this year.  He has value overall.   He has the potential to be a decent offensive player too.  Still, the strength of our system is Henderson, Ortiz, Westburg, and Norby.   Mateo could hold SS for another 2-3 years or they could deal him this offseason.   I’m good either way.   As others have said, with no shift, Mateo may have even more defensive value than now.  I do believe that Henderson or Ortiz can be overall better players at SS because of the offensive gain.

[Pickles]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

Tough call.   I could see sticking with Mateo and hoping the offense is no worse than this year.  He has value overall.   He has the potential to be a decent offensive player too.  Still, the strength of our system is Henderson, Ortiz, Westburg, and Norby.   Mateo could hold SS for another 2-3 years or they could deal him this offseason.   I’m good either way.   As others have said, with no shift, Mateo may have even more defensive value than now.  I do believe that Henderson or Ortiz can be overall better players at SS because of the offensive gain.

Henderson is probably a better overall player at SS but man, I like that Gold Glove SS thing.  If it were up to me, I'd go into next season 3b Henderson, SS Mateo, 2b Urias, with Ortiz and Westburg as Util or AAA.  Urias has the shortest leash.  And if Mateo replicates his 2022 in 2023, then maybe going into 2024 you look to move after he's established his value level, much as Mullins did this year, and you have a clearer idea of what Ortiz and Westburg are.  But that's just me.

[Aristotelian]

17 minutes ago, Pickles said:

I just really think it's worth noting Jorge Mateo's performance in the bottom of the eighth inning last night.  He made three defensive plays, ranging from nice to spectacular, to record all three outs and save the Orioles at least two runs, likely several more.  He had Jim Palmer, an expert if there ever was one, waxing poetic about Mateo's defensive ability, calling it "as good as it gets" and specifically conjuring up the names Aparicio, Belanger, and Ripken.  I include the link to the final out.

https://www.mlb.com/video/akil-baddoo-lines-out-to-shortstop-jorge-mateo?cp=MIXED&p=0&q=TeamId %3D [110] Order By Timestamp DESC

It seems to me a lot of people are eager to move on from Mateo.  There are options, and he isn't a perfect player by any means.  However, in my opinion, the turn around this year has largely been predicated on run prevention, and Jorge Mateo playing GG SS has been a huge part of that.

The two-bouncer on the backhander from the outfield grass was even better. 

Of course, in the 9th he fouled off balls four and five while striking out looking on a perfect pitch at the knees!

[Pickles]

2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

The two-bouncer on the backhander from the outfield grass was even better. 

Of course, in the 9th he fouled off balls four and five while striking out looking on a perfect pitch at the knees!

Yeah, I was going to mention he lead off the inning, worked himself a good count, swung at balls 4 and 5, and then Ked looking.  Although I wouldn't call that pitch "perfect" except in so much as it was a "perfect" pitcher's pitch, borderline low and inside.

He giveth and he taketh away.

[RZNJ]

7 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Henderson is probably a better overall player at SS but man, I like that Gold Glove SS thing.  If it were up to me, I'd go into next season 3b Henderson, SS Mateo, 2b Urias, with Ortiz and Westburg as Util or AAA.  Urias has the shortest leash.  And if Mateo replicates his 2022 in 2023, then maybe going into 2024 you look to move after he's established his value level, much as Mullins did this year, and you have a clearer idea of what Ortiz and Westburg are.  But that's just me.

I disagree here. It's time to move forward.  Mateo AND Urias can't both start next season on the O's.  Westburg and Ortiz time is now.  Best defensive alignment is Henderson, Mateo, Ortiz.  I like Westburg as a super utility guy and potential replacement for Mountcastle.  That leaves Urias out in the cold although I could see him as the super utility player as well.   

[RZNJ]

5 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Yeah, I was going to mention he lead off the inning, worked himself a good count, swung at balls 4 and 5, and then Ked looking.  Although I wouldn't call that pitch "perfect" except in so much as it was a "perfect" pitcher's pitch, borderline low and inside.

He giveth and he taketh away.

Right. He swung at ball 4 twice but the caught looking was borderline low and borderline inside.  

[MCO'sFan]

18 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Tough call.   I could see sticking with Mateo and hoping the offense is no worse than this year.  He has value overall.   He has the potential to be a decent offensive player too.  Still, the strength of our system is Henderson, Ortiz, Westburg, and Norby.   Mateo could hold SS for another 2-3 years or they could deal him this offseason.   I’m good either way.   As others have said, with no shift, Mateo may have even more defensive value than now.  I do believe that Henderson or Ortiz can be overall better players at SS because of the offensive gain.

I like Mateo and I think he should be the starting SS to begin the year. I am hoping/expecting that once Ortiz proves his hit tool improvement is real then he should be up and providing elite defense and average or even plus offense. I would love to see our prospects develop to the point that Mateo is a super utility guy getting 4-5 starts each week.

[MCO'sFan]

16 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Henderson is probably a better overall player at SS but man, I like that Gold Glove SS thing.  If it were up to me, I'd go into next season 3b Henderson, SS Mateo, 2b Urias, with Ortiz and Westburg as Util or AAA.  Urias has the shortest leash.  And if Mateo replicates his 2022 in 2023, then maybe going into 2024 you look to move after he's established his value level, much as Mullins did this year, and you have a clearer idea of what Ortiz and Westburg are.  But that's just me.

I want the infield to begin 2023 to be Upgrade at 1B, Westburg 2B, Mateo SS, Henderson 3B. I want Ortiz to force his way up and replace Mateo turning him into an IF/OF Super utility guy. I want Norby to be getting consistent starts at 1B in AAA. Urias should not be a starter next year. 

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, MCO'sFan said:

I like Mateo and I think he should be the starting SS to begin the year. I am hoping/expecting that once Ortiz proves his hit tool improvement is real then he should be up and providing elite defense and average or even plus offense. I would love to see our prospects develop to the point that Mateo is a super utility guy getting 4-5 starts each week.

Two problems I see. I think Mateo is a ML starting SS. I think he's proud and rightly sees himself that way.  His best value is at SS. 

1. I don't think Mateo would be happy with a "demotion" to super utility.  Easy to say he should just shut up and do it.

2. If Mateo isn't our starting SS I much prefer to trade him to another team which envisions him as there starting SS.

3. By the end of the season Joe Ortiz will have about 100 PA in AAA.  It looks like his OPS there will be over .900 if not over 1.000 where it currently is.  He is now almost 3 months into this "hot streak".  The next thing on his agenda for me is proving he can hit ML pitching.

[Aristotelian]

8 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Right. He swung at ball 4 twice but the caught looking was borderline low and borderline inside.  

It was definitely a strike. Tough pitch to swing at after being set up away-away-away but it was a strike. I don't know where to find it but I would guess that pitch is called a strike at least 90% of the time. 

[Pickles]

4 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I disagree here. It's time to move forward.  Mateo AND Urias can't both start next season on the O's.  Westburg and Ortiz time is now.  Best defensive alignment is Henderson, Mateo, Ortiz.  I like Westburg as a super utility guy and potential replacement for Mountcastle.  That leaves Urias out in the cold although I could see him as the super utility player as well.   

I don't see the eagerness to hand Ortiz a starting spot on Opening Day next year.  If Urias replicates his 2nd half then I think it isn't long before Ortiz or Westburg could supplant him, but we should see this year that besides Henderson and Rutschman, who are on their own levels, the rookies have struggled generally in their first chances.

[MCO'sFan]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Two problems I see. I think Mateo is a ML starting SS. I think he's proud and rightly sees himself that way.  His best value is at SS. 

1. I don't think Mateo would be happy with a "demotion" to super utility.  Easy to say he should just shut up and do it.

2. If Mateo isn't our starting SS I much prefer to trade him to another team which envisions him as there starting SS.

3. By the end of the season Joe Ortiz will have about 100 PA in AAA.  It looks like his OPS there will be over .900 if not over 1.000 where it currently is.  He is now almost 3 months into this "hot streak".  The next thing on his agenda for me is proving he can hit ML pitching.

I don't disagree with you here but, I don't want to trade him until Ortiz forces his way up. If that happens then you look to trade Mateo at the deadline. Then Ortiz comes up or, he is a SU until the 23-24 offseason when you trade him. Now if he has an OPS of say .750 then Ortiz has to wait or he plays 2B and Westburg becomes a SU guy. 

[MCO'sFan]

2 minutes ago, Pickles said:

I don't see the eagerness to hand Ortiz a starting spot on Opening Day next year.  If Urias replicates his 2nd half then I think it isn't long before Ortiz or Westburg could supplant him, but we should see this year that besides Henderson and Rutschman, who are on their own levels, the rookies have struggled generally in their first chances.

You're right Ortiz shouldn't be handed a starting job next year. Westburg has NOTHING to prove in AAA. He needs to be the starting 2B next year, if no one is added. IMHO

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, Pickles said:

I don't see the eagerness to hand Ortiz a starting spot on Opening Day next year.  If Urias replicates his 2nd half then I think it isn't long before Ortiz or Westburg could supplant him, but we should see this year that besides Henderson and Rutschman, who are on their own levels, the rookies have struggled generally in their first chances.

What's struggling?  Stowers and Vavra really haven't been given a full chance to succeed or fail.  

Urias has a .677 OPS.  Ortiz is a better defensive 2B.  I am not the least bit worried about starting next year with Ortiz at 2B.  In a worst case scenario you still have Westburg and Norby around.