Jones wants say in offseason, plans to meet with Angelos

[Ori-Al]

It's not like you can save it for later years. Heck, Dan had to sell our two time fifty plus save closer. A budget is a budget. If you sign off on it as a manager, you work with it. If you can't agree with it, they usually replace you.

Did Dan have to sell him, or did Dan not believe a closer, even a two time 50+ saves closer, was worth $10M per season? If the latter, said closer may have been sold off even if budget was somewhat higher.

Going back to Adam, after PA hears him out, maybe PA will ask Adam to spend the offseason learning the strike zone, so as to stop swinging at so many pitches so far out of it.

[abbott]

I don't think that there is any evidence that the Angelos family have profited in anyway other than as equity. I've never seen it. I've not seen the 20% ROI in liquid return that everyone attempts to assume. I knew Denis Kozlowski and Martin Grass. I never saw that world with the Angelos clan.

Everything about the Orioles, MASN & Angelos finances, profits, earnings and distributions is purely speculative.

Whether they have taken profits as dividends, distributions, salaries, bonuses, contributions to trusts, retirement plans or any other means of conveyance is completely confidential and unknowable by someone who is not a member, owner, shareholder, attorney or accountant.

[Nevermore]

It's not like you can save it for later years. Heck, Dan had to sell our two time fifty plus save closer. A budget is a budget. If you sign off on it as a manager, you work with it. If you can't agree with it, they usually replace you.

I still want to know: what firm budget figure does PA have? Does anyone truly know? Or are we all just speculating?

[Nevermore]

The main reason I like Duquette is that he's won.

Not this year. Duquette won in 2014 and in 2012 (as I recall). But he hasn't won this year. I'm not completely sold that the fault for not doing better in 2015 lies mostly with Angelos. Duquette has done his own part. As of course the players.

[Nevermore]

Thanks.

It just cracks me up that so many on this board want to act like the Orioles are resource starved.

I know I just got done calling the man a meh owner essentially but fair is fair. 120 million is not chicken change and should be enough for a good GM to put together a very competitive team if the money is utilized well. In the past DD has done a decent to very good job of utilizing resources, this year, not so much.

:agree: Makes a lot of sense, at least to me.

[Nevermore]

Everything about the Orioles, MASN & Angelos finances, profits, earnings and distributions is purely speculative.

Whether they have taken profits as dividends, distributions, salaries, bonuses, contributions to trusts, retirement plans or any other means of conveyance is completely confidential and unknowable by someone who is not a member, owner, shareholder, attorney or accountant.

Absolutely. So this idea of a firm budget is only speculative. That's what I thought.

[VTech]

Current payroll is 110 which is 17th. 120 is 11th. The Cardinals payroll is 120

120 is enough to win. The Mets and Astros have significantly lower payrolls.

Cardinals are unbelievable at what they do, it is hard to compare. Mets haven't won in a long time so I would say one winning season isn't adequate. Same with Astros but they aren't even leading their decision and might not make the playoffs.

[Nevermore]

Do you mind answering my question? Do you honestly think DD has more budget and just chooses not to use it? If you do think that, what makes you think it?

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I don't know. We are all just speculating. However, the failure to resign Nelson Cruz was not due to a budget crunch. It was due to DD choosing not to resign him for baseball reasons -- he thought that Nelson Cruz wouldn't do much in the 4th year. DD didn't consult with PA about the possibility of resigning Cruz.

I'm probably a bit prejudiced because I thought that Cruz should have been resigned, even for the 4 years. So let's go to a different example: Markakis. Now I wasn't completely convinced that Nick should have been resigned at the time. Emotionally, I wanted it, but there were sound baseball reasons why DD would decide not to do it, mainly Markakis's age during the length of a 4 year deal. It made sense not to resign him, and I have serious doubts that DD went to PA and asked him was it in the budget. If anything (again, just speculating) it would seem that PA would want Markakis resigned as a fan favorite. But he did not question DD's reasons not to.

But the main problem is that DD did not replace either of these players with comparable players. Again, speculating, but I believe that PA isn't stupid or naive. He would have known that replacing at least one of these guys would cost, and he would have approved of this expense to build a winning team. So it seems, at least to me that DD had more budget to use and chose not to use it.

[Nevermore]

You're acting like the fact that none of us have a notarized budget from DD's desk makes it as equally likely that he has no budget as that his budget was somewhere around $120M. Do you really think that? I ask again why you believe a GM would not choose to spend all his allocated budget at some point during the season?

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Because a GM might decide that he doesn't need to spend the resources provided. He might decide that the players that he signs or retains are enough to win, whether or not it meets any allocated budget.

[scOtt]

I'm happy that AJ has concerns for the team, and his future (what happens this coming off-season may impact his future pay).

I apologize if I'm repeating anything that someone has said, but from the 4 or 5 pages I've read on this post, it seems everyone is pitting AJ vs PA and the FO. I say it's possible he is representing all of those in the clubhouse who have a vested stake in their own future. Sort of like a shop-steward/union rep.

Will it help? I don't know.. but I'm rooting for AJ

That's what I was thinking. Couldn't think how to word it as well as you did. He represents his whole team. He's the undisputed leader. But all the players want to know what's happening. More than this whole board combined.

[scOtt]

So am I.

Still baffled by the reaction of many on the OH.

I am constantly baffled by it actually.

In a town where unions have had such a strong hold, the Orioles fans on this forum are strangely pro-ownership.

I wonder if there were many pro-Steinbrenner Yankees fans when he was messing up his team?

MSK

We're not pro-ownership. We're just resigned to it. Angelos isn't going to change. And his sons will probably be the same. We don't beat our heads against the brick wall of $200 million contracts.

[scOtt]

He just wants to win, and preferably win on a team of good guys he likes to be around.

Guys like Davis. Maybe we're all reading this wrong and Jones secretly wants to make a pitch for CD. What he means to the team. It could happen.

[scOtt]

Absolutely. So this idea of a firm budget is only speculative. That's what I thought.

Look at the final budgets of the last several years. I don't know where to find them and don't care to. I'll say this, graph them. It'll be a smooth slightly upward curve. THAT is the "speculation" eveyone is using. FACTS. The budget barely rising every year, like a COLA. If that doesn't convince you that it is a hard budget I don't know what else to say.

[scOtt]

I don't know. We are all just speculating. However, the failure to resign Nelson Cruz was not due to a budget crunch. It was due to DD choosing not to resign him for baseball reasons -- he thought that Nelson Cruz wouldn't do much in the 4th year. DD didn't consult with PA about the possibility of resigning Cruz.

I'm probably a bit prejudiced because I thought that Cruz should have been resigned, even for the 4 years. So let's go to a different example: Markakis. Now I wasn't completely convinced that Nick should have been resigned at the time. Emotionally, I wanted it, but there were sound baseball reasons why DD would decide not to do it, mainly Markakis's age during the length of a 4 year deal. It made sense not to resign him, and I have serious doubts that DD went to PA and asked him was it in the budget. If anything (again, just speculating) it would seem that PA would want Markakis resigned as a fan favorite. But he did not question DD's reasons not to.

But the main problem is that DD did not replace either of these players with comparable players. Again, speculating, but I believe that PA isn't stupid or naive. He would have known that replacing at least one of these guys would cost, and he would have approved of this expense to build a winning team. So it seems, at least to me that DD had more budget to use and chose not to use it.

:eektf: You think Angelos' MAIN goal is a winning team??? Did you really type that?

e:And by default DD DOESN'T want a winning team?

[25 Nuggets]

They have spent

2012 84M

2013 92M

2014 108M

2015 119M

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/al-east/baltimore-orioles/

I will go on record as saying I firmly believe those increases weren't arbitrary. They were increases in budget provided that were subsequently spent.

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Cool -- so the budget next season should be about $130 mil? Lots of room. :thumbsup1: