Schmuck on point on Fowler

[hoosiers]

Your questions were basically answered in this thread. If you don't like the answers, well there is not much else anyone can say. But everyone is entitled to believe what they want.

When you use the word "answered", I don't think you know what it means.

[Stotle]

I'd argue that Casey Close is a buffoon as well. No matter how much he blathers about the behavior of the Orioles, he never refuted anything when he had days to, and he cost his player money. Potentially, a lot of money if Fowler hits like he did the 2nd half of last season.

1. If the Cubs had been willing to give Fowler a three or four year deal in October he likely would have taken it.

2. Absent a long term deal, Fowler was excited to test free agency (with the Cubs telling him to stay in touch through the offseason).

3. There was no market for him with the pick attached and he was left with a "meh" offer from a team he doesn't know.

4. The Cubs gave him a second option, one allowing him the ability to hit the market again next year while spending this year on the current WS favorites who also happen to be an org he is familiar with and really enjoys.

I'm sure Fowler would have preferred to get the big long-term deal he wanted. I have no doubt he carries zero regret about not agreeing to play in Baltimore. If the Orioles had offered the opt-out, it's quite possible (but not certain) he'd be in Florida right now.

In the end, who really cares? Fowler has a skillset that would have fit in well with Orioles as the team is currently constructed, but he isn't a core player. Great for the Cubs they have *him* as a fourth outfielder -- that's pretty staggering outfield depth. But as far as the Orioles are concerned does he really swing the needle much one way or the other? If he did, he wouldn't have still been looking for a job in late February.

[Stotle]

My guess would be that Close read the market wrong for his client. He turned down near 16M on a QO, had him lined up for 35M guaranteed and if he knew his client wanted to be a Cub all along, then why turn the QO down and end up making near 3M less?

You are putting too much on Close.

[24fps]

Mad Dog is a buffoon.

Judging by the language in his press release, so is Casey Close.

[Stotle]

Judging by the language in his press release, so is Casey Close.

Are you saying this because you know for a fact that there was nothing brought up during Fowler talks that was questionable or worthy of anger from Close?

I get why folks don't like shots being taken at Baltimore. They should also keep in mind Duquette plays hardball and doesn't always "do the dance" when it comes to not stepping on toes. I think Close's statements ultimately amount to puffery to be trotted out later on during CBA talks, but I would be shocked if they were completely out of the blue, no leg to stand on type comments. And I think if they were then you would have gotten a much different response from Duquette and the Orioles.

This isn't just "We'll take the highroad" talk. The Orioles were pushing hard during negotiations and obviously some of that was done in a manner that was objectionable to Close.

[Moose Milligan]

I don't blame Fowler for choosing the Cubs. It makes sense for him for a number of reasons. So I feel pretty bummed because Fowler would have been a great fit for the team, but not outraged.

Aside from individual blame, a lot of this is a consequence of the times we live in for sports coverage and the fact that all journalists have the tools to get a scoop out instantaneously. It seems neither side ever confirmed the deal, but it was still treated as gospel because once the news goes online the number of "sources" reporting it multiplies. I'm guessing that pre-Twitter, this wouldn't have been such a big deal for the media because the "news" of the O's/Fowler deal would not have become so widespread. But I could be wrong, because I don't know much about similar cases to this that might have happened before.

Yeah, but it doesn't make sense for him. Soler, Schwarber, Heyward. Maybe Schwarber sees more time at catcher but still.

He'd have played every day here.

"In allll my twenty-fiiiiive yeeaaarss in this business.. [dramatic pause to compose self], I have NEVER... N E V EE RRRRRR"

Come on, dude.

Yeah, seriously. The guy cost his client a lot of guaranteed money, could have refuted the reports on the agreement, and to get everyone to forget about how terrible a job he's done he puts out a statement that makes the Orioles look bad. That equals jerk to me.

I'd argue that Casey Close is a buffoon as well. No matter how much he blathers about the behavior of the Orioles, he never refuted anything when he had days to, and he cost his player money. Potentially, a lot of money if Fowler hits like he did the 2nd half of last season.

Casey Close sucks. I hope he's reading all of this.

[Stotle]

Yeah, but it doesn't make sense for him. Soler, Schwarber, Heyward. Maybe Schwarber sees more time at catcher but still.

He'd have played every day here.

If Baltimore had wanted to pay him what he's worth for three years I'm sure he would be playing in Baltimore. If they had been willing to allow him the opportunity to hit FA again he very well might be playing in Baltimore. But, they didn't. And he didn't want to be locked into a three year deal where he felt he was getting around 60% of what he's worth. You really find that to be THAT shocking?

[UpstateNYfan]

Close is just doing what any good agent/lawyer has to do, take the bullets aimed at his client. We have our guys Davis and Wieters saying negotiating is out of their hands. IMO, Fowler side stepped his agent and got an agreement from the Cubs. Do you think a Boras would allow his client to turn down what the O's had on the table for what Fowler ended up with?

[Aristotelian]

It is a guess and perhaps a good one, but we really don't know.

Clearly, at decision making time, Fowler decided he wanted to be a Cub. The path to that destination seems convoluted for sure. Close is a convenient scape goat to fans here because the Os were left without the player and with the best $ on the table, but we really don't know the Close-Fowler decision making process.

It is not about preferring the Cubs to the Orioles. It is about the opt out, which came through at the last minute. Fowler has an inflated view of himself, he thinks he deserves more money than he was getting from the O's, and the opt out gives him a second chance to try and get it. That is why he turned down the QO and that is why he is taking less than the QO to turn down 3/$35M.

[24fps]

Are you saying this because you know for a fact that there was nothing brought up during Fowler talks that was questionable or worthy of anger from Close?

I get why folks don't like shots being taken at Baltimore. They should also keep in mind Duquette plays hardball and doesn't always "do the dance" when it comes to not stepping on toes. I think Close's statements ultimately amount to puffery to be trotted out later on during CBA talks, but I would be shocked if they were completely out of the blue, no leg to stand on type comments. And I think if they were then you would have gotten a much different response from Duquette and the Orioles.

This isn't just "We'll take the highroad" talk. The Orioles were pushing hard during negotiations and obviously some of that was done in a manner that was objectionable to Close.

I'm saying that Close's public response should have been considerably more temperate regardless of what might have transpired in private. Otherwise people such as myself and many others might not justifiably conclude that he's a buffoon.

[Stotle]

I'm saying that Close's public response should have been considerably more temperate regardless of what might have transpired in private. Otherwise people such as myself and many others might not justifiably conclude that he's a buffoon.

Okay. Well, I have no issue with people being protective of the team they root for. I don't think "justifiable" is the right word, but I also don't care so much.

[Malike]

1. If the Cubs had been willing to give Fowler a three or four year deal in October he likely would have taken it.

2. Absent a long term deal, Fowler was excited to test free agency (with the Cubs telling him to stay in touch through the offseason).

3. There was no market for him with the pick attached and he was left with a "meh" offer from a team he doesn't know.

4. The Cubs gave him a second option, one allowing him the ability to hit the market again next year while spending this year on the current WS favorites who also happen to be an org he is familiar with and really enjoys.

I'm sure Fowler would have preferred to get the big long-term deal he wanted. I have no doubt he carries zero regret about not agreeing to play in Baltimore. If the Orioles had offered the opt-out, it's quite possible (but not certain) he'd be in Florida right now.

In the end, who really cares? Fowler has a skillset that would have fit in well with Orioles as the team is currently constructed, but he isn't a core player. Great for the Cubs they have *him* as a fourth outfielder -- that's pretty staggering outfield depth. But as far as the Orioles are concerned does he really swing the needle much one way or the other? If he did, he wouldn't have still been looking for a job in late February.

I honestly don't care about the player. Like you said, he's not a core piece, he's a 2 win player. Looking at how Fowlers off-season went down, I think its hard to say Close didn't fumble it. His player lost money. I also don't care what he says about Baltimore, etc. I just think what happened was poor decision making and I think he thought Fowler's market was more than it was. If Fowler puts up another season like last, a year older, the Cubs will just QO him again if they don't trade him first and he'll likely not get the 70M or whatever he thought he was worth this year.

[O-Arm36]

Are you saying this because you know for a fact that there was nothing brought up during Fowler talks that was questionable or worthy of anger from Close?

I get why folks don't like shots being taken at Baltimore. They should also keep in mind Duquette plays hardball and doesn't always "do the dance" when it comes to not stepping on toes. I think Close's statements ultimately amount to puffery to be trotted out later on during CBA talks, but I would be shocked if they were completely out of the blue, no leg to stand on type comments. And I think if they were then you would have gotten a much different response from Duquette and the Orioles.

This isn't just "We'll take the highroad" talk. The Orioles were pushing hard during negotiations and obviously some of that was done in a manner that was objectionable to Close.

I'm sure there were things that Close found objectionable. However, "willfully disregarding collectively bargained rules" seems pretty out of character for the most pro-labor ownership group in all of sports. But I think Close's statement will ultimately serve it's purpose and the next CBA will focus on these issues (especially given Tony Clark's comments on his visit to Sarasota today). I know the Orioles played hardball with Close, but I really can't imagine an owner who would take a CBA more seriously than Angelos.

[Malike]

I wonder if Theo didn't give him a wink wink nudge nudge deal with no QO.

Ask Bronson Arroyo how a deal in good faith with Theo worked out for him. :rofl:

[Stotle]

60%? Really? So, 3/55-60 is what he is worth in your opinion with the QO/lost pick? You must have thought the Orioles were absolute Gods when it was reported that he signed for 3/33-35? Or are you counting the value of the lost pick? If so, shouldn't his true value take that into account?

I mean, him saying "I'm worth 3/55-60 if it wasn't for darn QO/lost pick issue" is not much different than me saying "I'd have been drafted in the first 3 rounds if I was 6'3" instead of 6'0" and threw 92 instead of 86 when I was 22". It might be true, but it also isn't reality.

The Orioles were getting Fowler for less than face value at 3/33-35, but it was more like 85-90 cents on the dollar IMO.

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Sorry. I didn't intend for it to be a literal figure. Use whatever figure you want -- the point is the offer didn't meet his expectations. It wasn't enough to close the deal.