Manny's defense at SS

[Frobby]

Does anyone know what to make of the high number of errors recently? I've seen two 4-error games in the past week which have been extremely rare under Buck.

The constant shuffle of 3B isn't helping, especially when one of the players being shuffled is Alvarez. And as I said, Manny is more error-prone than Hardy, though he also is capable of making spectacular plays. Otherwise, I think it's mostly just random stuff that happens over 162 games.

[calmunderfire]

I'm not. If you reads carefully you'll see I think he has the tools to be a great defensive SS, but he isn't one yet, and Hardy still is.

Of course he's not. He hasn't had the chance to prove greatness at SS. He just doesn't had the chance to log enough games at the position to see what he can or can't do. Sort of like an elite level boxer who was destroying everybody, but ducked by the best and never given his chance because everybody else was in such fear. Was Marvin Hagler a great fighter? Yes he was, but took forever to get his chance to prove it because everybody was running completely scared. Similar to Machado. He's a great defensive player and would be a great defensive player, but he simply hasn't been given his chance. And no I do not consider this to be a chance. He needs hundreds of games at the position.

[Frobby]

Of course he's not. He hasn't had the chance to prove greatness at SS. He just doesn't had the chance to log enough games at the position to see what he can or can't do. Sort of like an elite level boxer who was destroying everybody, but ducked by the best and never given his chance because everybody else was in such fear. Was Marvin Hagler a great fighter? Yes he was, but took forever to get his chance to prove it because everybody was running completely scared. Similar to Machado. He's a great defensive player and would be a great defensive player, but he simply hasn't been given his chance. And no I do not consider this to be a chance. He needs hundreds of games at the position.

I think that's pretty fair. He's played a lot of SS in the minors but hasn't played it hardly at all since mid-2012, so you'd expect to see an adjustment period and a learning curve. Certainly based on the small sample we've seen, there's reason to think he'd be a very good defensive SS. The stats show it, and it's likely he'd only get better with experience.

[Redskins Rick]

I think that's pretty fair. He's played a lot of SS in the minors but hasn't played it hardly at all since mid-2012, so you'd expect to see an adjustment period and a learning curve. Certainly based on the small sample we've seen, there's reason to think he'd be a very good defensive SS. The stats show it, and it's likely he'd only get better with experience.

The problem as I see it.

Manny can played great defense at either spot.

He can't play both at the same time.

So you have to find a really good 3rd or SS to man the other slot.

[El Gordo]

I think that's pretty fair. He's played a lot of SS in the minors but hasn't played it hardly at all since mid-2012, so you'd expect to see an adjustment period and a learning curve. Certainly based on the small sample we've seen, there's reason to think he'd be a very good defensive SS. The stats show it, and it's likely he'd only get better with experience.

You concur with his statement: "What we do know is that he's a flat out more talented defender than Hardy ? I don't.

[Frobby]

You concur with his statement: "What we do know is that he's a flat out more talented defender than Hardy ? I don't.

Tricky question. "Talented" is a loaded word. Is the ability to avoid making careless mistakes and maintain 100% concentration at all times a part of "talent?" If so, then I agree it is not clear that Manny is the more talented defender. But if you are just talking about range and arm strength and things like that, then I'd probably say Manny is more talented than Hardy. It's really a matter of how you want to define "talent."

I do think that Hardy's talent is significantly underrated by some. His defensive numbers are near the top year after year, and that's not just because he's smart and has good habits.

[Redskins Rick]

Tricky question. "Talented" is a loaded word. Is the ability to avoid making careless mistakes and maintain 100% concentration at all times a part of "talent?" If so, then I agree it is not clear that Manny is the more talented defender. But if you are just talking about range and arm strength and things like that, then I'd probably say Manny is more talented than Hardy. It's really a matter of how you want to define "talent."

I do think that Hardy's talent is significantly underrated by some. His defensive numbers are near the top year after year, and that's not just because he's smart and has good habits.

The team itself seams to play better with Hardy around it, not like he is carrying the team with his bat, but for some reason, his presence is felt.

[El Gordo]

Tricky question. "Talented" is a loaded word. Is the ability to avoid making careless mistakes and maintain 100% concentration at all times a part of "talent?" If so, then I agree it is not clear that Manny is the more talented defender. But if you are just talking about range and arm strength and things like that, then I'd probably say Manny is more talented than Hardy. It's really a matter of how you want to define "talent."

I do think that Hardy's talent is significantly underrated by some. His defensive numbers are near the top year after year, and that's not just because he's smart and has good habits.

I would say so. It's the reason Brooks was great and Cal as well. I also am not convinced Manny's range is greater. I will concede his arm. Have to see more of him. As with Cal flashy doesn't always mean better.

[jamalshw]

I would say so. It's the reason Brooks was great and Cal as well. I also am not convinced Manny's range is greater. I will concede his arm. Have to see more of him. As with Cal flashy doesn't always mean better.

Likewise, 'talent' doesn't mean better either. I would argue that what you're referring to is skill rather than talent. To me, talent is the raw ability minus the effort, concentration and determination. It's when you combine a talented player with the hard work and developed skills that you get a super star.

[Redskins Rick]

I would say so. It's the reason Brooks was great and Cal as well. I also am not convinced Manny's range is greater. I will concede his arm. Have to see more of him. As with Cal flashy doesn't always mean better.

IMO, the difference between the two.

Manny has more athletic skill, faster and able to cover more ground.

Cal was much slower, but Cal was an ex pitcher, and he stayed in the loop with the Pitcher and the Catcher, and placed himself, where he thought the hitter would hit the ball.

[El Gordo]

I don't think talent is limited to the physical.

[stef]

For those of you who have watched a lot of the games (I haven't), isn't the best defensive alignment Manny at 3B and Janish at SS?

From the outside, it seems that BS is playing Manny at SS at the expense of 3B. Or is Janish equally adept at 3B as he is (supposed to be) at SS?

[Redskins Rick]

For those of you who have watched a lot of the games (I haven't), isn't the best defensive alignment Manny at 3B and Janish at SS?

From the outside, it seems that BS is playing Manny at SS at the expense of 3B. Or is Janish equally adept at 3B as he is (supposed to be) at SS?

Janish has a strong enough arm to play 3rd, heck he even pitched 2 innings in 2009 and no hits.

He has also played some at 3rd and 2nd, before coming to the Orioles.

[Frobby]

I don't think talent is limited to the physical.

It's all in how you want to define it. Let's say that three years from now, Manny has learned how to concentrate on the field 100% of the time, and also has learned through experience how to best make certain plays. Is he more talented than he was before?

By the same token, let's say that due to age Hardy is a half-step slower now than when he first joined the Orioles. Is he less talented than he was?

On the other hand, if Manny doesn't work out next winter, and is a half-step slower because of it, is he less talented than before?

Is Manny more talented than he was in 2012, because he's fully developed and is stronger? Or is talent measured by innate potential?

People can get really hung up on definitional stuff like this. All I know is, I do not think Manny is yet quite as good as shortstop as Hardy is and has been. But he has the potential to be a very good SS (I'd say he is already very good and will get better with experience), and eventually Hardy will decline to the point where Manny is better. Hopefully that point is still two years away. In the meantime, I love having Hardy at SS and Manny at 3B.

[OFFNY]

Tricky question. "Talented" is a loaded word. Is the ability to avoid making careless mistakes and maintain 100% concentration at all times a part of "talent?" If so, then I agree it is not clear that Manny is the more talented defender. But if you are just talking about range and arm strength and things like that, then I'd probably say Manny is more talented than Hardy. It's really a matter of how you want to define "talent."

I do think that Hardy's talent is significantly underrated by some. His defensive numbers are near the top year after year, and that's not just because he's smart and has good habits.

It is a loaded word, and it's a good question.

I think that talent, when used in regard to athletics, is a general reference to physical ability.

That is why a player is sometimes referred to as "Great, even though he has modest talent" and/or "Great, even though not as talented as (fill in the blank player.)"

Again, this is speaking in terms of athletics/sports. In other area of life/professions in which mental and emotional strengths and weaknesses are taken into account, then it would be different.