Jump to content

Are we witnessing the death of the Orioles?


Todd-O

Recommended Posts

10 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

That is where the accounting chicanery comes into play.  They still paying debt service on the money Angelos loaned the team?

 

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I'd like to know how much of those "other expenses" were things like depreciation and other legal-but-not-real things that businesses do to limit their tax exposure.  And how much money MASN provided to the very same owners of the Orioles that isn't reflected on the Orioles' books.  The idea that the Orioles lost $6.5M, meaning Angelos and team had to write checks out of their own accounts to keep the team solvent, seems preposterous.

What legitimate other expenses could they have that add up to about $100M dollars?   

I don’t know the answers to those questions.    In 2010, Deadspin got their hands on the financial statements of five teams and published them.    That data is no longer available, but there was a thread here discussing it.    From going back to that, I was able to glean that those teams spent $15-25 mm on scouting and player development as of that time.    So, there’s one component.    
 

Anyway, I wasn’t trying to argue that the O’s are not profitable.    I just thought you’d underrepresented the expenses that the team has.     But I agree that some of the expense listed by Forbes may be non-cash bookkeeping items or debt service due to the owners.    I really don’t know.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

How many people do you know who aren't from DC who used to be real O's fans who have abandoned the team for the Nats?  The only ones I know are old guys who grew up around DC and used to root for the Senators.

This is my experience as well. I lived in DC for 47 years and the main reasons I had for not attending Orioles games were dissatisfaction with ownership and traffic. Originally in that order but the past 10 years traffic became a major obstacle. 
 

I live on the eastern shore now and love the direction of the team and will start attending games once again. Some of us really enjoy the rebuild process.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

 

I don’t know the answers to those questions.    In 2010, Deadspin got their hands on the financial statements of five teams and published them.    That data is no longer available, but there was a thread here discussing it.    From going back to that, I was able to glean that those teams spent $15-25 mm on scouting and player development as of that time.    So, there’s one component.    
 

Anyway, I wasn’t trying to argue that the O’s are not profitable.    I just thought you’d underrepresented the expenses that the team has.     But I agree that some of the expense listed by Forbes may be non-cash bookkeeping items or debt service due to the owners.    I really don’t know.   

Is the money spent on signing draft picks in the player expenses?

Also the MASN revenue not subject to revenue sharing is not in the Forbes calculation. MASN is a separate entity then the Orioles.That is one of the reasons the Orioles dont want to give any more  money to the Nationals. For every dollar they give more to the Nationals they have to give to the Orioles and that is subject to revenue sharing. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Going Underground said:

Is the money spent on signing draft picks in the player expenses?

Also the MASN revenue not subject to revenue sharing is not in the Forbes calculation. MASN is a separate entity then the Orioles.That is one of the reasons the Orioles dont want to give any more  money to the Nationals. For every dollar they give more to the Nationals they have to give to the Orioles and that is subject to revenue sharing. 

I’d expect that the signing bonuses from the draft and foreign amateur signings are in a different bucket.   Player costs as used by Forbes is the major league player salaries plus benefits.    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Redskins Rick said:

Redskins stink, and the fan still support and fill the seats, and always have, go back over the years, when they lead NFL in sold out games and yes, RFK was smaller than FEDEX but not that small.

I am not a hockey fan, but love the caps, but willingly admit, to waiting for playoffs to watch their games, and I havent been to a cap game since Cap Arena in Largo.

The Senators never had a real winning season, but in spite of that, their attendance wasnt bad, they had an idiot owner with thin pockets, who saw a golden opportunity and he jumped.

I was a big bullets fan, until I fell out of favor with the NBA and wish the Wizards well.

The expansion Senators were regularly 8th-10th in attendance in a 10 team league.  Only once did it rise as high as 6th. The original AL Senators were 8th in an 8 team league through most of the 50s, falling back in the pack after the Browns and A's moved.  Their attendance was poor.

And FedEx Field is often substantially empty for Redskins games, even after removing or covering a ton of seats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Ohfan67 said:

St Louis really jumps out when you look at attendance numbers for MLB. They have big market attendance in an area with a modest population. Impressive. 

I think that St. Louis and the Cardinal fanbase is a lot like San Antonio and the Spurs fanbase.  Not exactly the same because the Spurs are actually the only game in town (and St. Louis has the Blues), but similar enough.  Both the Cardinals and Spurs are winning franchises that are basically never bad.  What have the Spurs had, five titles and one losing season in 30+ years?  And that one bad season got them Tim Duncan.  Over the last 20 seasons, the Cardinals have had a losing record exactly one time...in 2007 when they went 78-84.  13 playoff appearances, 4 pennants, and 2 titles over that stretch.  The team is basically always good and that makes it much easier to be a fan and to keep attendance up. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

The expansion Senators were regularly 8th-10th in attendance in a 10 team league.  Only once did it rise as high as 6th. The original AL Senators were 8th in an 8 team league through most of the 50s, falling back in the pack after the Browns and A's moved.  Their attendance was poor.

And FedEx Field is often substantially empty for Redskins games, even after removing or covering a ton of seats.

When they played at 56K RFK, they sold out football games, 100K seats at FED-EX was a bit of a stretch, they put a lot of fans in the stands.

In 1969, they only drew 11K average to home games, yet, there was 9 teams, that did worse.

The Original Senators moved to Minnesota and became the twins.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/16/2019 at 7:56 AM, Todd-O said:

Not to kick this day off with doom and gloom,

Yet that's exactly what you're doing.  Your narrative seems to take anecdotes (whether they be real or not) and paint them in the most negative light, that works toward a pre-determined conclusion at the death of baseball in Baltimore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Redskins Rick said:

When they played at 56K RFK, they sold out football games, 100K seats at FED-EX was a bit of a stretch, they put a lot of fans in the stands.

In 1969, they only drew 11K average to home games, yet, there was 9 teams, that did worse.

The Original Senators moved to Minnesota and became the twins.

 

The Redskins had few problems selling out FedEx when some living fans could still remember when the team had been relevant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

The Redskins had few problems selling out FedEx when some living fans could still remember when the team had been relevant.

NFL attendance has drop around the league, much like MLB, just not to the extent MLB is seeing.

Like most new stadiums, when they are brand new, they tend to be fuller at the beginning.

I did find it a bit funny, in 2018, the Ravens had more fans in the stand than the Skins, for home games, and the reverse for road games.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Redskins Rick said:

NFL attendance has drop around the league, much like MLB, just not to the extent MLB is seeing.

Like most new stadiums, when they are brand new, they tend to be fuller at the beginning.

I did find it a bit funny, in 2018, the Ravens had more fans in the stand than the Skins, for home games, and the reverse for road games.

 

As with the Orioles, winning matters.  The last time the Redskins were strong Super Bowl contenders I was in college.  I'm now 48.  The Redskins are the old Pirates, Royals, and Orioles, just without the 2010s surges each of those teams had.  Almost no team could go through 25 years of irrelevance without taking a significant hit in their fanbase.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

NFL attendance has drop around the league, much like MLB, just not to the extent MLB is seeing.

Like most new stadiums, when they are brand new, they tend to be fuller at the beginning.

I did find it a bit funny, in 2018, the Ravens had more fans in the stand than the Skins, for home games, and the reverse for road games.

FedEx is a far less enjoyable experience than RFK was, regardless of how good or bad the team is.    It takes forever to get there, the parking situation is abysmal, and the concession prices are extortionate.    I know several people who spent years on the waiting list, got tickets at FedEx, and gave them up after a few years because the experience just wasn’t worth it.     Of course, the team’s failures are part of it too.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

As with the Orioles, winning matters.  The last time the Redskins were strong Super Bowl contenders I was in college.  I'm now 48.  The Redskins are the old Pirates, Royals, and Orioles, just without the 2010s surges each of those teams had.  Almost no team could go through 25 years of irrelevance without taking a significant hit in their fanbase.

The extremely high cost of NFL almost dictates the team be relevant, if you want to put fan into the seats.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

FedEx is a far less enjoyable experience than RFK was, regardless of how good or bad the team is.    It takes forever to get there, the parking situation is abysmal, and the concession prices are extortionate.    I know several people who spent years on the waiting list, got tickets at FedEx, and gave them up after a few years because the experience just wasn’t worth it.     Of course, the team’s failures are part of it too.   

For me, its easier to get to FEDEX. Parking is best, if you pay the extra money and get "A" ticket parking.

Concession prices, are crazy. Lucky, last couple of times, I got comped tickets which included food and drink.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Frobby said:

FedEx is a far less enjoyable experience than RFK was, regardless of how good or bad the team is.    It takes forever to get there, the parking situation is abysmal, and the concession prices are extortionate.    I know several people who spent years on the waiting list, got tickets at FedEx, and gave them up after a few years because the experience just wasn’t worth it.     Of course, the team’s failures are part of it too.   

I concur on all accounts.  I've had a Virginia Tech game there that ended at midnight, and I walked in my front door at 4am (normally 1:15 away).  I've sat in seats at FedEx that felt like a quarter-mile from the field.  I once sat five seats over from a woman who vomited over most of an entire section, it was barely cleaned up and other people were allowed to come sit in the abandoned seats.  You can park in stadium lots that must be almost a mile from the stadium.  And a Miller Lite costs like $14. It's my least favorite stadium.  RFK, dilapidated and obsolete, with 11,000 soccer fans at a DC United game, was a wonderful experience.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Posts

    • Thanks for the detailed explanation of all of the issues.  Sounds like a mess.
    • Yeah the amenities are pretty outdated at the yard and they seem to do nothing year over year to improve them. The touchscreens have been banged on to death to the point they barely function, so you can't accurately fill out your order at the kiosks, and they don't have a way for the people behind the counter to ring you up at many of the food places. The sound is low to non-existent in certain sections of the club level, like around 218. Seems like there should be speakers that reach there but they might have been damaged by rain, etc. and they are too lazy to fix them. If you go to a game that's even slightly busy, you will wait forever to get into the bathroom, and the sink will be an absolute mess with no soap or paper towels. It's even worse on the club level where they have one sink that's right by the door. Nearby businesses don't care, either. The Hilton parking garage reeks of decay, pot and human waste. They don't turn on the air circulation fans, even if cars are waiting for an hour and a half to exit from P3, filling up the air with carbon monoxide. They only let you enter the stadium with one 20 oz bottle of water. It's so expensive to buy a drink or water in the stadium, but with all the salty food, 20 oz of water isn't enough, especially on a hot day. Vegetarian food options are poor to none, other than things like chips, fries, hot pretzels and the occasional pizza. Vida Taco is better, but at an inconvenient location for many seats. The doors on the club level are not accessible. They're anti-accessible. Big, heavy doors you have to go through to get to/from the escalators, and big, heavy doors to get to your seats, none of them automatic (or even with the option to be automatic with a button press). Makes it hard to carry food out to your seats even if not handicapped. The furniture in the lounges on the club level seem designed to allow as few people as possible to sit down. Not great when we have so many rain delays during the season. Should put more, smaller chairs in and allow more of the club level ticket holders to have a seat while waiting for thunderstorms to pass. They keep a lot of the entrance/exit gates closed except for playoff/sellout games, which means people have to slowly "mooooo" all the way down Eutaw St to get to parking. They are too cheap to staff all the gates, so they make people exit by the warehouse, even though it would be a lot more convenient for many fans to open all the gates. Taking Light Rail would be super convenient, except that if there's at least 20k fans in attendance, it's common to have to wait 90-120 minutes to be able to board a non-full train heading toward Glen Burnie. A few trains might come by, but they are already full, or fill up fast when folks walk up to the Convention Center stop to pre-empt the folks trying to board at Camden Station. None of the garages in the area are set up to require pre-payment on entry (reservation, or give them your card / digital payment at the entrance till). If they were, emptying out the garage would be very quick, as they wouldn't need to ticket anyone on the way out: if you can't get in without paying, you can always just leave without having to stop and scan your phone or put a ticket in the machine. They shut down the Sports Legends Museum at Camden Station in 2015 because the Maryland Stadium Authority was too greedy. That place was a fun distraction if you were in the area when a game wasn't about to start, like if you show up super early on Opening Day or a playoff day. Superbook's restaurant on Eutaw is a huge downgrade from Dempsey's in terms of menu and service quality. Dempsey's used to be well-staffed, you could reserve a table online, and they had all kinds of great selection for every diet. Superbook seems like just another bar serving the same swill that the rest of the park serves, with extremely minimal and low-quality food. For that matter, most of the food at the stadium is very low quality these days. A lot of things we used to love are made to a lower standard now if they are served at all. These are gripes about the stadium and the area that haven't changed my entire adult life. Going to an O's game requires one to tolerate many small inconveniences and several major inconveniences, any number of which could easily be fixed by the relevant authorities if they gave a damn about the people who pay to come see the team play. You would think a mid-market team would be able to afford to invest in the fan experience. You would think the city and partnering organizations like garages, the Stadium Authority and MTA would at least try to do their part to make the experience enjoyable and free of kinks. You would think they would put some thought into handling the "growing pains" of the fanbase due to recent renewed interest after the dark years. Instead, all we get is the same indifference and the same annoyances year in and year out. The whole area is overdue for a revamp. Not sure if $600 mil will get it done, but at least it's a start. Hopefully they can start to patch up some of the many holes in the fan experience. If you're not going to invest in Burnes, at least make it so paying customers have an easier, more enjoyable time getting to/from the stadium and having some food while we're there.
    • Elias has only been in rebuild mode with the O's so there's not much to speculate on there.  Houston, where he spent his formative years, doesn't seem to like to be on the hook for more than a couple of big long-term contracts at any given time.  I can see that as being Elias' choice as well, albeit with a lower overall cost - Houston runs a big payroll.  But it's all guesswork.  I really don't know. If Elias takes the 2025 payroll to $150 million it will creep up to $200 million or so by 2028 just from keeping the core together.  That's where I start to wonder about sustainability due to market size, economic forces, etc., etc., etc... If it were up to me, I would add a couple of free agents this offseason even if the contracts were longer than ideal and be conservative about extensions elsewhere until the prospects establish themselves a little better.  I think there's a competitive opportunity that the team is already into that's worth exploiting. I think ownership is very happy to have Elias on board and they're not inclined to force him to do anything.  I also think Rubenstein's demonstrated business prowess is great enough to assume that he has had plenty enough time to come to a mutual understanding with Elias as to goals.
    • We need a RH O’hearn…in addition to Westburg. At least 3 batters that will push up the pitch count and cause damage in the top 5 of the lineup.
    • Boy,  that Jackson Merrill is a good young player that is playing his best ball down the season stretch and in the playoffs.   He's only 21.  I guess some young guys are able to play up to the pressure.   Who could have guessed that?
    • I’m aware.   You are arguing something im Not.
    • What agreement? The agreement you are talking about happened as a result of the move.  The MASN agreement would not have existed if Angelos had gone to court to block the move.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...