La Russa Campaigning for McGwire for the HOF

[Migrant Redbird]

St. Louis Post Dispatch: La Russa: Proof of Mark McGwire’s “certain integrity” makes him a Hall of Famer

On his third try, Mark McGwire belongs in the Hall of Fame, La Russa believes.

It’s a matter a of “integrity.”

“This steroid issue, that’s a matter of integrity, right?” La Russa said. “That’s one way to describe it, right? Well, it occurred to me, I know that I’ve never spoken much about it at all, but this guy did something that screams integrity. … How many guys do we know that had a contract like he had? He had a contract in his hand for $15 million over two years, and he walked away from it because he didn’t feel like he could play to that level. That, to me, there’s a certain integrity for the sport, for self-respect and everything.”

La Russa is referencing a story that is well-known in St. Louis. After the 2001 season, a disappointing one for the slugger, McGwire retired and, as Bernie Miklasz put in a column around that time, “handed a guaranteed $30 million contract back to the Cardinals.” From Rick Hummel’s coverage of the extension McGwire signed during spring training of that same season, quoting Walt Jocketty to start:

“… He wanted to have a clause that if he was unable to play, he’d only take half his money. He said, ‘Look, I don’t want to be paid if I’m not playing. I don’t want my full salary if I’m not going to play. I don’t think it’s right.’ “But we weren’t able to put that kind of language in the contract. Still, I think it’s remarkable that he would do that.”

Jocketty said the Cardinals called the commissioner’s office about the matter and the reply was that the Cardinals could indeed put the clause in the contract, “but they didn’t think it would be approved (by the players’ association).”

La Russa contends that while the hearings before Congress and the subsequent lack of comment from McGwire — who did speak with Hummel on the 10th anniversary of his 70 home runs in 1998 — has cast a shadow over McGwire’s career, this act of giving back a guaranteed contract sheds the real light on McGwire’s character. And, La Russa continues, yes, character should be considered when Hall of Fame voters consider McGwire for a third time.

My own theory, for which I have absolutely zero evidence, is that McGwire may have tried steroids or something along that line back when he was a teenager growing up within Southern California's body builder culture. McGwire has said a number of times that he didn't use steroids, but it may have been only that he didn't use them while he was a professional baseball player. When he was subpoenaed to testify before Congress, he knew that he would be asked if he'd ever used performance enhancing drugs and if he'd qualified the statement that he hadn't used them as a professional ballplayer, he would have been grilled until he would have had to confess to using something prior to that point. Rather than go the emphatic denial route that Palmeiro took, McGwire simply took his lawyer's advice and refused to discuss the issue at all.

I base that theory partly because I don't believe that McGwire would have been using androstenedione and creatine in 1998 if he'd also been using steroids. What evidence there is on androstenedione suggests that it does not help significantly to develop muscles, whereas there are numerous synthetic anabolic steroids which clearly do. I think that McGwire was probably using androstenedione and creatine then precisely because they were legal over-the-counter "nutritional supplements" at the time and because he believed -- without much justification -- that they helped him to bounce back from workout sessions faster. I think that a placebo would probably have done him just as much good.

As I say, it's just a theory without any evidence to back it up.

[Moose Milligan]

So...LaRussa is campaigning cause McGwire gave back a hefty contract?

Redbird, I appreciate your zest for the subject at hand, but look at the circumstances. McGwire was rail thin when he came up:

<img src = "http://www.kmmcoinsandcurrency.com/images/graphics/1987toppsmarkmcgwire.jpg">

Look at his arm there. It almost looks like Mary Kate or Ashley Olson's.

At the height of his popularity:

<img src = "http://blog52.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/mark_mcgwire.jpg">

Those are some big guns. He doesn't have that ripped steroid physique you'd have if you were a pro wrestler, but arms like that don't grow without a little help.

Creatine and andro...first of all, creatine isn't as bad as anyone would like to make it out to be. Like anything else, you can't overdo it, but if you cycle it or load it and don't take it every single day, it's fine. It's naturally found in red meat and I put it in my protein shakes every other day. However, it's not uncommon to see bodybuilder types use something called a "stack." Taking multiple suppliments/steroids at one time in order to gain a desired result.

Not sure about the andro.

Anyway, McGwire and Canseco both got big together in the late 80's. I'm not always a fan of the guilt by association game, but it's hard to overlook it here. And McGwires injuries that lead to his demise are pretty much in line with the types of injuries that steroid users have.

The whole "I'm not here to talk about the past" thing during his testimony is a glaring admission of guilt. What was posed to him was a pretty simple question...if he didn't have anything to hide, why not just admit it? "Sir, I took creatine, andro and that's it."

At the end of the day, my official stance on the whole sterioid thing is that MLB is at fault for turning a blind eye during this whole thing and then acting horrified that this was going on. I'm pretty indifferent towards the players who are running the risk of being kept out of the HoF. Clemens and Bonds were HoFers before their career resurgence in their late 30's that was helped by PED's. McGwire is a tougher call.

I won't lose sleep if Clemens, Bonds and McGwire don't get in. All three of them failed to learn the lesson that Giambi and Pettite did which was to essentially say "I'm sorry, I messed up." And what do you know? They've been pretty much forgiven.

Clemens, Bonds and McGwire have not...due to continually denying heavy evidence against them and thinking they're bigger than life, or in McGwire's case, not sacking up and admitting it when directly questioned at a federal hearing.

In the end, they have no one to blame but themselves, especially Mark McGwire.

[mweb]

Rather weak argument by LaRussa, although I would not keep someone out of the HOF just because they used steroids. I'm also quite confident Big Mac did use steroids during his career.

[Migrant Redbird]

Redbird, I appreciate your zest for the subject at hand, but look at the circumstances. McGwire was rail thin when he came up:

Look at his arm there. It almost looks like Mary Kate or Ashley Olson's.

That photo isn't clear enough to tell me anything.

Those are some big guns. He doesn't have that ripped steroid physique you'd have if you were a pro wrestler, but arms like that don't grow without a little help.

I don't believe you know what you're talking about. I grew up in farming country and I still recall the forearms on some of those old dairy farmers who'd been milking dozens of cows by hand twice a day. They were huge, and I'm pretty confident that they weren't using steroids to get that way.

And there were muscle bound body builders before the days of using steroids. According to Charles Atlas, he trained himself to develop his body from that of a "scrawny weakling". He took the name "Charles Atlas because a friend told him he resembled a statue of Atlas. This was back in 1922, before testosterone had even been discovered and well before synthetic steroids became popular among body builders in the late fifties and early sixties. Check out this photo of Charles Atlas from 1938, if you don't believe me that it's possible to develop a muscle bound physique through ordinary hard work without using chemicals. http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/30/65730-004-0155598B.jpg

Anyway, McGwire and Canseco both got big together in the late 80's. I'm not always a fan of the guilt by association game, but it's hard to overlook it here.

By all accounts, McGwire was a fanatic about working out, whereas Canseco never wanted to bother much with it. I think it's quite possible that McGwire developed his muscles simply by spending more time in the weight room than his peers, whereas Canseco got his out of a syringe.

And McGwires injuries that lead to his demise are pretty much in line with the types of injuries that steroid users have.

McGwire had chronic degenerative osteoarthritis in his knees. So do I, and I can assure you that I developed it without the aid of any anabolic steroids. Mine came mostly from all the running I did while in the Army; McGwire may have fostered his through all the stress from his weight lifting, from doing squats and lunges incorrectly.

The whole "I'm not here to talk about the past" thing during his testimony is a glaring admission of guilt.

It suggests that there was something in McGwire's past which he wasn't going to discuss in front of Congress and the entire country. It doesn't necessarily follow that it was steroids use as a professional player that he was trying to avoid discussing. You're jumping to a huge conclusion when you assume that. You might be right, but it's not a given. Surely you have watched enough Perry Masons to be aware that a witness's motivation for not wanting to testify can be quite different from the obvious assumption?

What was posed to him was a pretty simple question...if he didn't have anything to hide, why not just admit it? "Sir, I took creatine, andro and that's it."

Because answering just one question along that line opens up an entire line of related questioning, and the courts have consistently held that a witness can't begin answering those questions and suddenly stop by claiming their 5th amendment rights. Congress didn't actually get around to requiring McGwire to exercise his 5th amendment rights, but they could have.

If he did have something to hide, why didn't he just do a "Palmeiro" and vehemently deny ever using steroids. Unlike Palmeiro, McGwire was retired and didn't have any concerns about failing a subsequent urinalysis test. The only one who has ever claimed to have witnessed McGwire using any steroids is Jose Canseco, and Jose totally impeached his own credibility on 60 minutes.

Clemens and Bonds were HoFers before their career resurgence in their late 30's that was helped by PED's. McGwire is a tougher call.

We don't know that Clemens and Bonds weren't using steroids before they learned how to use them so effectively. For that matter, we don't know that McGwire wasn't using steroids before he posed for that playing card photo where you claim he was so skinny. A lot of the guys getting caught for using steroids are not muscle bound in any way. It's a canard that you have to use steroids to develop large muscles and it's also a canard that large muscles prove you must have used steroids.

I won't lose sleep if Clemens, Bonds and McGwire don't get in. All three of them failed to learn the lesson that Giambi and Pettite did which was to essentially say "I'm sorry, I messed up." And what do you know? They've been pretty much forgiven.

I don't think that Giambi and Pettite have necessarily been "forgiven", and it's kind of irrelevant with respect to the HOF because they're both well below minimum standards with or without PEDs.

On the other hand, if McGwire didn't use steroids as a professional, you still think he ought to confess to it because a bunch of yahoos think he did?

Just as McGwire wasn't in the game for the money, I don't think he cares nearly as much as a lot of other players about getting into the HOF. He values his privacy, and the privacy of his family, way too much to engage in a public relations campaign to change a few BBWA voters' minds.

Clemens, Bonds and McGwire have not...due to continually denying heavy evidence against them and thinking they're bigger than life, or in McGwire's case, not sacking up and admitting it when directly questioned at a federal hearing.

In the end, they have no one to blame but themselves, especially Mark McGwire.

I don't think that you know what you're talking about, and I'm sure that you have the same opinion of me. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[byrdz]

If he did have something to hide, why didn't he just do a "Palmeiro" and vehemently deny ever using steroids.

Maybe because that's most likely prison time. Not answering the question is one thing but outright lying to courts is illegal. It's still not telling the truth though which is what was asked of him.

You obviously have great emotional attachment here, but from an outsiders point of view, McGuire looks about as guilty of PEDs use as they come.

I personally feel that the effects of the PED's era will wear off and he will finally some day get into the HOF.

[Migrant Redbird]

Maybe because that's most likely prison time. Not answering the question is one thing but outright lying to courts is illegal. It's still not telling the truth though which is what was asked of him.

Prosecution for perjury is pretty rare, and convictions even rarer. Perjury: The Forgotten Offense

"Few crimes except fornication are more prevalent or carried out with greater impunity." ... Prosecutions for criminal perjury are rare. The total number of criminal cases commenced in all United States district courts for perjury in the fiscal years 1966 through 1970 was 335. This total was two-tenths of one per cent of the 162,664 cases commenced in the same courts during the same time period. Of the 21,478 sentenced prisoners in federal institutions as of June 30, 1966, only eleven were sentenced for perjury.

Of course, it isn't much consolation that conviction for perjury is extremely rare if one happens to be one of the exceptions, and McGwire, as a celebrity, would be a more enticing target for an ambitious US attorney. Also, any crimes which McGwire might have committed if he did use steroids would have been past their statute of limitations, whereas committing perjury would open up a brand new five year window under which he could be prosecuted.

However, if federal investigators had turned up any credible evidence that McGwire used steroids, it would have been in the Mitchell Report. With respect to McGwire, the Mitchell Report only cited the discredited allegations of Canseco, which wouldn't stand up in any court. If McGwire was afraid of getting caught for perjury, it could only have come about as a result of one of his suppliers getting caught for some crime -- not necessarily trafficking -- and turning states evidence in order to get a lighter sentence. However, given the passage of time, any such testimony would need to be supported by some form of tangible evidence, such as the canceled checks and shipping invoices which Kirk Radomski turned over to the Feds. Radomski is probably a rare exception -- a criminal who maintained records of his transactions long after they were delivered and paid for. Most criminals are going to dispose of such documentary evidence of their crimes as soon as they no longer need it.

You obviously have great emotional attachment here, but from an outsiders point of view, McGuire looks about as guilty of PEDs use as they come.

Emotional attachments aside, I have provided rational explanations why there is little evidence that McGwire used steroids. I can't help it that a great many fans think he's guilty; there are a lot of things which the average person believes to be true which aren't. Look at how long it took to destroy the myth that the world was flat.

I personally feel that the effects of the PED's era will wear off and he will finally some day get into the HOF.

I don't. The average fan and the average sports writer are simply irrational on the topic.

Despite the ample evidence that steroids usage began in the sixties and seventies, most fans and writers persist in believing that it was exclusively a problem of the nineties.

Despite the fact that most players who've failed urinalysis tests have been skinny kids with performance so marginal they were unlikely to ever be successful major leaguers, fans and writers still seem to believe that a muscular physique and extraordinary performance are prima facie evidence of steroids usage.

Despite the fact that there's no way of knowing who among current HOF members used steroids and who didn't, or which potential candidates used steroids -- lacking a confession, a failed urinalysis, or documentary evidence from their suppliers -- fans persist in believing that they know who used steroids and who didn't, and when they began using.

That is all a delusion, but it will continue to dissuade BBWA members from voting for McGwire, using every shred of rationale they can muster to support their position. If McGwire can only garner 25 percent of the vote now, he will never attain the 75 percent necessary for election.

[sangar]

Because McGwire is a nice guy he is not ridden like Bonds. In my book he is every bit as guilty and belongs nowhere near the Hall.

[Moose Milligan]

Ahhh, Militant Redbird. I knew you'd have a worthy rebuttal

That photo isn't clear enough to tell me anything.

I'm not surprised it's not clear enough for you. However, it was clear enough for the Topps baseball card company to include it in their 1987 set. Try looking again. I've even found a larger version for you so you don't have to grab your glasses:

<img src = "http://badwax.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/87mmcgwire.jpg">

I'm not sure how you can tell me that skinny chicken wing isn't "clear enough" right now.

I don't believe you know what you're talking about. I grew up in farming country and I still recall the forearms on some of those old dairy farmers who'd been milking dozens of cows by hand twice a day. They were huge, and I'm pretty confident that they weren't using steroids to get that way.

McGwire grew up in the SoCal burbs as the son of a dentist. I'm not sure he's seen a dairy farm, nor can I find any records of him competing in cow milking contests during his minor league days.

And there were muscle bound body builders before the days of using steroids. According to Charles Atlas, he trained himself to develop his body from that of a "scrawny weakling". He took the name "Charles Atlas because a friend told him he resembled a statue of Atlas. This was back in 1922, before testosterone had even been discovered and well before synthetic steroids became popular among body builders in the late fifties and early sixties. Check out this photo of Charles Atlas from 1938, if you don't believe me that it's possible to develop a muscle bound physique through ordinary hard work without using chemicals. http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/30/65730-004-0155598B.jpg

It is certainly possible to develop a muscle bound physique without using chemicals, however its rare to find that these days except for your boys on the dairy farm.

It speaks the way our culture is now...everyone is about finding shortcuts and figuring out the fastest way to get to their destination. How many people have fallen for a "get rich quick" scam in order to chase a dollar? How many gym rats have used steroids to pack on muscle faster?

I'm not denying that McGwire didn't spend time in the weight room working on his physique, he clearly did. However I am saying he had a little help getting there.

By all accounts, McGwire was a fanatic about working out, whereas Canseco never wanted to bother much with it. I think it's quite possible that McGwire developed his muscles simply by spending more time in the weight room than his peers, whereas Canseco got his out of a syringe.

Now this is just ignorance. If you think Canseco never lifted a weight or worked out, that he could just pump himself full of roids and have magically developed muscles, you are sadly mistaken. You can't just take steroids, not lift and not work out and get muscles.

McGwire had chronic degenerative osteoarthritis in his knees. So do I, and I can assure you that I developed it without the aid of any anabolic steroids. Mine came mostly from all the running I did while in the Army; McGwire may have fostered his through all the stress from his weight lifting, from doing squats and lunges incorrectly.

Going by your profile, you're 61 years old so it's not a stretch to think that you'd have osteoarthritis.

However a man in his mid to late 30's probably shouldn't. And a quick google search tells me this about the link between McGwire's condition and the use of anabolic steroids:

Misuse of anabolic steroids, which are popular among some athletes, can also bring on early osteoarthritis.

http://www.webmd.com/osteoarthritis/guide/understanding-arthritis-basics

I'm not going to do your research for you, but do your due diligence in looking at the types of injuries McGwire had and the types of injuries that steroid users typically run into.

It suggests that there was something in McGwire's past which he wasn't going to discuss in front of Congress and the entire country. It doesn't necessarily follow that it was steroids use as a professional player that he was trying to avoid discussing. You're jumping to a huge conclusion when you assume that. You might be right, but it's not a given. Surely you have watched enough Perry Masons to be aware that a witness's motivation for not wanting to testify can be quite different from the obvious assumption?

Because answering just one question along that line opens up an entire line of related questioning, and the courts have consistently held that a witness can't begin answering those questions and suddenly stop by claiming their 5th amendment rights. Congress didn't actually get around to requiring McGwire to exercise his 5th amendment rights, but they could have.

If he did have something to hide, why didn't he just do a "Palmeiro" and vehemently deny ever using steroids. Unlike Palmeiro, McGwire was retired and didn't have any concerns about failing a subsequent urinalysis test. The only one who has ever claimed to have witnessed McGwire using any steroids is Jose Canseco, and Jose totally impeached his own credibility on 60 minutes.

You're kidding with this, right?

He was asked directly, "...What other supplements did you use?"

Now...

You might be right that there was something else in his past that he didn't want to discuss. Can you tell me what that might be?

I'm going to go on the corollary between the fact that he is at a senate hearing about the use of STEROIDS IN BASEBALL and the fact that he was asked directly about what else he took other than legal over the counter supplements, that he's hiding his steroid use. You're arguing that there's something in his past that he didn't want to discuss. What else could it be other than steroids? Yes it's making an assumption but at least there are logical steps to making that assumption.

While I haven't watched much Perry Mason, I do know that when someone exercises their 5th amendment right, it can't be inferred in court that the person is guilty...but it definitely can be inferred by the public that he is. So while that senate hearing didn't find that McGwire had used steroids that day, the rest of the country and the baseball writers did the math.

Also, check his opening statement:

Asking me or any other player to answer questions about who took steroids in front of television cameras will not solve the problem. If a player answers 'No,' he simply will not be believed; if he answers 'Yes,' he risks public scorn and endless government investigations.... My lawyers have advised me that I cannot answer these questions without jeopardizing my friends, my family, and myself. I will say, however, that it remains a fact in this country that a man, any man, should be regarded as innocent unless proven guilty."

He didn't even want to be asked about it, essentially telling the people who were questioning him not to bring it up because he wasn't going to say yes or no.

As for Raffy, who knows? Maybe he felt like he was taking top of the line steroids and masking agents and wouldn't be found out a few weeks later. But when he did his little finger waving routine, I believed that the only thing he was taking was Viagra.

We don't know that Clemens and Bonds weren't using steroids before they learned how to use them so effectively. For that matter, we don't know that McGwire wasn't using steroids before he posed for that playing card photo where you claim he was so skinny. A lot of the guys getting caught for using steroids are not muscle bound in any way. It's a canard that you have to use steroids to develop large muscles and it's also a canard that large muscles prove you must have used steroids.

Please.

We know Bonds used. Did you miss the whole thing where he "didn't know" that the topical ointment that he was using was in fact a steroid?

Yeah, it's a canard that you have to use steroids to develop large muscles and it's also a canard that large muscles prove you must have used steroids.

But in this day and age with steroids, doping and PED's running rampant throughout sports, it's ignorant to believe that Mark McGwire was the golden child who rose above the rest and did things cleanly and legally, especially with his not so stellar performance at his senate hearing.

I don't think that Giambi and Pettite have necessarily been "forgiven", and it's kind of irrelevant with respect to the HOF because they're both well below minimum standards with or without PEDs.

Giambi and Pettite have been forgiven. They're both still employed in the MLB and both had jobs after they were named in the Mitchell and came out and said they were wrong. Giambi and Pettite have not been vilified by the public in the way McGwire, Bonds and Clemens have. The American public and the baseball writers didn't like their arrogance and constant denial in the face of evidence against them. Bonds and Clemens are the most laughable ones out of the three.

On the other hand, if McGwire didn't use steroids as a professional, you still think he ought to confess to it because a bunch of yahoos think he did?

What?

I think he should have denied it if he really didn't do it. I think he should have admitted it if he did and apologized. Instead, he wussed out and used the 5th amendment.

Just as McGwire wasn't in the game for the money, I don't think he cares nearly as much as a lot of other players about getting into the HOF. He values his privacy, and the privacy of his family, way too much to engage in a public relations campaign to change a few BBWA voters' minds.

I'll grant you this, but it's easy to give back a contract after you've already made several million dollars over the course of your career and made several million more in endorsements.

I don't think that you know what you're talking about, and I'm sure that you have the same opinion of me. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Hey, at least I'm not the one turning to cow farmers and pictures of body builders from the 40's as proof that you can build muscle without using steroids.

You may think that I'm some sort of McGwire basher...I'm not. I liked him and rooted for him in the homer race, just like everyone else. I think he's a good guy and means well. He should be commended for his charity work that he's done. By all accounts he's a classy guy, unlike Bonds...and not smarmy like Clemens. I think his downfall isn't that he used steroids, I think his downfall is that he didn't admit to it and that he became a bit of a recluse directly after. It's like he wants to run away from things entirely.

I just think you're extremely jaded because he played for the Cardinals. You admitted the other day that you wouldn't be such a huge supporter of his if he didn't play for them.

[Migrant Redbird]

McGwire grew up in the SoCal burbs as the son of a dentist. I'm not sure he's seen a dairy farm, nor can I find any records of him competing in cow milking contests during his minor league days.

Totally irrelevant. Those farmers had bulging forearm muscles. McGwire's ultra developed muscles were in the biceps, triceps, and shoulder muscles.

I'm not denying that McGwire didn't spend time in the weight room working on his physique, he clearly did. However I am saying he had a little help getting there.

You're assuming facts for which there is zero credible evidence.

... Now this is just ignorance. If you think Canseco never lifted a weight or worked out, that he could just pump himself full of roids and have magically developed muscles, you are sadly mistaken. You can't just take steroids, not lift and not work out and get muscles.

For this, I'm forced to rely in large part on the word of someone whose credibility I've questioned in the past. New York Times, February 7, 2005: La Russa Disputes Claims in Canseco's Book

La Russa said Canseco and McGwire were ''not really close,'' and he strongly disputed the idea that McGwire used steroids, let alone allowed Canseco to administer them.

''We detailed Mark's workout routine -- six days a week, 12 months a year -- and you could see his size and weight gain come through really hard work, a disciplined regimen and the proteins he took -- all legal,'' La Russa said.

''As opposed to the other guy, Jose, who would play around in the gym for 10 minutes, and all of a sudden he's bigger than anybody.''

... Dave McKay, who coached McGwire in Oakland and in St. Louis and monitored his workouts, defended him yesterday.

''I swear on a stack of Bibles, I never saw him ever go anywhere near anything that would have a chance of hurting his body like a steroid,'' McKay said in a telephone interview. ''He's a guy who's always preaching about health. I can't ever dream of Mark using steroids.''

La Russa and McKay said that Canseco would speak openly about steroids and ignored advice to stop using them. ''He'd say, 'Come on, man, what are you talking about? I got the world by the tail,''' La Russa said. ''Sometimes you suspected, and then guys would deny it. Jose would make a joke of it.''

I should note that La Russa defended Canseco against allegations of using steroids before Jose admitted it, so La Russa's credibility on this particular issue is a little suspect. However, La Russa is not the only one who has confirmed that McGwire's workouts were extremely rigorous and intense. Given what has been reported about McGwire's physical regimen, it's quite possible that he took the same pathway towards a spectacular physique as Charles Atlas.

I also believe that La Russa was exaggerating when he said that Canseco would only spend 10 minutes in the gym at a time, but I do believe that Canseco was a lot less diligent about it than McGwire was.

Going by your profile, you're 61 years old so it's not a stretch to think that you'd have osteoarthritis.

It was an existing condition when I retired from the Army 15 years ago, at the age of 46, as documented in my physical administered by the VA. I was having problems with it as least as early as my 40th birthday.

However a man in his mid to late 30's probably shouldn't.

Jason Isringhausen has been suffering from osteoarthritis in one hip socket since his early thirties, which strongly suggests that it is the result of a congenital condition, nor from something he took. Now, I don't know that Isringhausen never used steroids, any more than I know that any other ballplayer of the last 50 years didn't use them, but I am absolutely confident that it's possible to suffer from osteoarthritis at a relatively young age without having caused the condition through usage of steroids.

Another example would be Albert Belle. While I also wouldn't argue that Belle didn't use steroids, I think it's a leap to insist his osteoarthritis was caused by steroid usage.

Mayo Clinic

It isn't clear what causes osteoarthritis in most cases. Researchers suspect that it's a combination of factors, including being overweight, the aging process, joint injury or stress, heredity, and muscle weakness.

So, what you're telling us is that you know more than the orthopedic surgeons at the Mayo Clinic when you insist that McGwire's osteoarthritis was caused by steroids. Give me a break!

Risk factors

Factors that increase your risk of osteoarthritis include:

* Older age. Osteoarthritis typically occurs in older adults. People under 40 rarely experience osteoarthritis. [However, men are more likely to develop osteoarthritis before the age of 45, probably because they have a more active lifestyle and suffer more joint injuries.]

* Sex. Women are more likely to develop osteoarthritis, though it isn't clear why. [before age 45, osteoarthritis occurs more frequently in males. After age 55 years, it occurs more frequently in females.Link]

* Bone deformities. Some people are born with malformed joints or defective cartilage, which can increase the risk of osteoarthritis.

* Joint injuries. Injuries, such as those that occur when playing sports or from an accident, may increase the risk of osteoarthritis.

* Obesity. Carrying more body weight places more stress on your weight-bearing joints, such as your knees. But obesity has also been linked to an increased risk of osteoarthritis in the hands, as well.

* Other diseases that affect the bones and joints. Bone and joint diseases that increase the risk of osteoarthritis include gout, rheumatoid arthritis, Paget's disease of bone and septic arthritis.

And a quick google search tells me this about the link between McGwire's condition and the use of anabolic steroids:

Misuse of anabolic steroids, which are popular among some athletes, can also bring on early osteoarthritis.

Yes, that's true, but it's hardly proof that any osteoarthritis experienced by McGwire was caused by steroids use. Your same google search should have also informed you that trauma is the most common cause of osteoarthritis among younger males, particularly among football and soccer players who have knee injuries. If you were a big kid growing up in Southern California, it's almost a given that you would have played high school football and have been subjected to peer pressures to at least try steroids.

I'm not going to do your research for you, but do your due diligence in looking at the types of injuries McGwire had and the types of injuries that steroid users typically run into.

After all that discussion of osteoarthritis, it's embarrassing to admit that I forgot it was patellar tendonitis which forced McGwire into retirement, but there's no literature that I've been able to discover which links patellar tendonitis with steroids. According to the Mayo Clinic:

Doctors aren't certain what causes patellar tendinitis. It's believed that a combination of factors could be involved, including:

* Intensity and frequency of physical activity.

* Tight leg muscles.

* Misalignment of [the] leg.

* Raised kneecap (patella alta).

* Muscular imbalance."

What I did find was that multiple injections of steroids directly into the patellar tendon can lead to increased risks of tendon rupture, but I don't believe that was McGwire's problem.

McGwire's back problems during his days in Oakland cost him more opportunities to run up his home run tally than the patellar tendonitis at the end of his career. In 1993 and 1994, he was limited to 9 home runs each season, with a total of only 289 plate appearances those 2 years. Although he continued to have back problems the rest of his career, McGwire bounced back with an average of 49 home runs per season over the remaining 7 years of his career. If steroid abuse caused his back problems and helped him to hit 70 home runs in 1998, why didn't he have more back problems during the years of his peak home run production.

Unlike osteoarthritis, back pain is not biased towards old age. My Army medical records show that I suffered from it when I was only 20.

You're kidding with this, right?

... You might be right that there was something else in his past that he didn't want to discuss. Can you tell me what that might be?

I can't tell you what that was because I'm not one of McGwire's few confidants. I've speculated that it was experimentation with steroids as a teenager growing up in Southern California. You can ask why McGwire wouldn't have admitted that to Congress. Why should he have done that? It wouldn't have made any difference to those who were already convinced that he used steroids for his record breaking 70 home runs.

I'm going to go on the corollary between the fact that he is at a senate hearing about the use of STEROIDS IN BASEBALL and the fact that he was asked directly about what else he took other than legal over the counter supplements, that he's hiding his steroid use. You're arguing that there's something in his past that he didn't want to discuss. What else could it be other than steroids? Yes it's making an assumption but at least there are logical steps to making that assumption.

There's a vast difference between logical speculation and being so pigheaded that one is convinced one's speculation is the gospel truth.

While I haven't watched much Perry Mason, I do know that when someone exercises their 5th amendment right, it can't be inferred in court that the person is guilty...but it definitely can be inferred by the public that he is.

What the public "infers" is often incorrect.

So while that senate hearing didn't find that McGwire had used steroids that day, the rest of the country and the baseball writers did the math.

No, they didn't do any "math". They simply jumped to conclusions of which they were already convinced to begin with.

Also, check his opening statement: ... He didn't even want to be asked about it, essentially telling the people who were questioning him not to bring it up because he wasn't going to say yes or no.

Which proves absolutely zero! McGwire's lawyer knew that once he began answering any questions regarding PEDs, he would be unable to stop answering questions which delved into his adolescent behavior or any other aspect of his private life or personal behavior involving any illicit activities or drugs. The lawyer's advice was to not answer any questions along those lines and McGwire followed that advice. His following his lawyer's advice doesn't validate any assumptions about his behavior, except that there was probably something in his past which he wasn't willing to discuss in public.

As for Raffy, who knows? Maybe he felt like he was taking top of the line steroids and masking agents and wouldn't be found out a few weeks later...

I still lean towards the hypothesis that Palmeiro got sandbagged by the vitamin B12 shot from Tejada. We know that Tejada bought his B12 in the Dominican Republic, where the laws on drugs are much laxer than in this country, and we know that some foreign drug companies were selling B12 in combination with stanazol (I've seen the ads on the internet, although they've since disappeared). It's possible that Tejada knew the B12 he gave Palmeiro contained stanazol and it's also possible that Tejada's supplier inadvertently mixed some B12 vials with stanazol into a larger batch of vials which only contained B12 without Tejada knowing. (I don't read the label on each vial of the medicine I use in my nebulizer for my breathing treatments.) Either hypothesis explains how Palmeiro could have received stanazol without knowing it, but they don't explain why he would have been dumb enough to have a fellow player inject B12 into him instead of getting a trainer or doctor to do it.

We know Bonds used. Did you miss the whole thing where he "didn't know" that the topical ointment that he was using was in fact a steroid?

Yes, there is apparently solid evidence that Bonds used steroids, although our knowledge of that evidence is based mostly upon illegal leaks of grand jury testimony.

Yeah, it's a canard that you have to use steroids to develop large muscles and it's also a canard that large muscles prove you must have used steroids.

Thank you for conceding my primary point!

But in this day and age with steroids, doping and PED's running rampant throughout sports, it's ignorant to believe that Mark McGwire was the golden child who rose above the rest and did things cleanly and legally, especially with his not so stellar performance at his senate hearing.

What's "ignorant" about not accepting the rash conclusions of the public and sports media that they know exactly what McGwire was doing? Most of us don't know that much about what our spouses do.

You're labeling me "ignorant" because I am not convinced by largely anecdotal evidence about the relationship between steroids and injuries and because I don't accept unsubstantiated allegations that McGwire used steroids.

We basically have two sources of those allegations. One of those was largely repudiated by Canseco's testimony on 60 Minutes.

"Well, I think it was more inject ourselves," he said. "I think I injected him -- I mean, this is a long time ago -- once or twice for sure. I didn't keep track."

To me, that sounds like the remarks of someone who succumbed to pressure from his book publisher to "enhance" his story about how many of his fellow athletes used steroids -- picking those he had played with who were already under suspicion -- then tripped himself up when Mike Wallace pinned him down on specifics.

The second source of allegations about McGwire: Allegations by two confessed drug dealers that another confessed drug dealer had provided McGwire and Canseco drugs. The dealer who allegedly provided those drugs did not confirm that, even though his deal with federal investigators would have required him to provide sworn testimony about everyone with whom he had contact. The fact that no such testimony about McGwire appeared in the Mitchell Report -- just the hearsay accusations were mentioned -- strongly implies that Wentzlaff never actually provided any steroids to McGwire, regardless of what he bragged to his barroom buddies. San Diego Union-Tribune

... two steroid dealers caught in the probe told the Daily News that another dealer provided McGwire and Jose Canseco, among others, with illegal anabolic steroids.

The Daily News said an informant told the paper that a California man named Curtis Wenzlaff injected McGwire on several occasions at a gym in Southern California...

... When contacted by the Daily News, Wenzlaff had no comment about the McGwire accounts but admitted turning Canseco from a novice into an expert steroid user.

... "Jose doesn't want to deny knowing him, but he just doesn't remember the guy," Canseco's attorney said.

I'll grant you this, but it's easy to give back a contract after you've already made several million dollars over the course of your career and made several million more in endorsements.

Easy? According to Baseball-Reference, McGwire made a total of nearly $75M over the course of his baseball career. The $30M contract he turned down would have added about 40 percent to McGwire's career earnings. Name me another ballplayer who turned down a contract of that magnitude, particularly when his team was begging him to take it.

The Cardinals knew full well that McGwire's knees would greatly limit his playing time, but they felt his value in drawing fans into the park made the contract worth it. Near the end of his career, McGwire was donating about 10 percent of his contracts with St. Louis to his foundation to aid abused children. Under those circumstances, why wouldn't he have gone ahead and taken the money?

Hey, at least I'm not the one turning to cow farmers and pictures of body builders from the 40's as proof that you can build muscle without using steroids.

However, you're not denying that muscle bound physiques can be built without steroids through hard work and you've acknowledged that McGwire's workouts were strenuous. Why are you denigrating evidence you've already conceded, unless you're simply bankrupt for any rational arguments?

You may think that I'm some sort of McGwire basher...I'm not. I liked him and rooted for him in the homer race, just like everyone else...

All of which is irrelevant to the fact that there's no credible evidence that McGwire used steroids. Methinks you doth protest too much.

I think his downfall isn't that he used steroids, I think his downfall is that he didn't admit to it and that he became a bit of a recluse directly after...

His downfall was that you and others like you want to jump to conclusions and pretend you know things which you have no way of knowing, and McGwire just happens to be a convenient target.

I just think you're extremely jaded because he played for the Cardinals.

"Jaded"???

Per Merriam-Webster online, jaded means 2 : made dull, apathetic, or cynical by experience or by surfeit <jaded network viewers> <jaded voters> I think that's a better description of you than me.

You admitted the other day that you wouldn't be such a huge supporter of his if he didn't play for them.

Another irrelevant argument. Palmeiro didn't play for the Cardinals, but I've pointed out a couple of hypotheses how he could have inadvertently received stanazol.

I don't think that my loyalty to the Cardinals blinds me at all to the possibilities that some Cardinals players have probably used PEDs.

There's a big difference between pointing out alternative explanations like I've done with Palmeiro and McGwire and simply digging in one's heels and refusing to admit one's opinions might be wrong, which is what you're doing. I'm not trying to prove McGwire didn't use steroids, because I can't. All I'm doing is poking holes in your arguments which cause you to be absolutely certain that he did.

[Moose Milligan]

Totally irrelevant. Those farmers had bulging forearm muscles. McGwire's ultra developed muscles were in the biceps, triceps, and shoulder muscles.

Yeah, you're right. Come to think of it, McGwire looked really weird with ultra developed biceps, triceps and shoulder muscles and really dinky forearms.

<img src = "http://blog52.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/mark_mcgwire.jpg">

You're assuming facts for which there is zero credible evidence.

We'll get back to this in a minute.

For this' date=' I'm forced to rely in large part on the word of someone whose credibility I've questioned in the past. New York Times, February 7, 2005: La Russa Disputes Claims in Canseco's Book

I should note that La Russa defended Canseco against allegations of using steroids before Jose admitted it, so La Russa's credibility on this particular issue is a little suspect. However, La Russa is not the only one who has confirmed that McGwire's workouts were extremely rigorous and intense. Given what has been reported about McGwire's physical regimen, it's quite possible that he took the same pathway towards a spectacular physique as Charles Atlas.

I also believe that La Russa was exaggerating when he said that Canseco would only spend 10 minutes in the gym at a time, but I do believe that Canseco was a lot less diligent about it than McGwire was.

Thanks for making my point for me. I'm glad you could tell that LaRussa was exaggerating a bit when he said that Canseco would spend 10 minutes in the gym. My point still stands though that you cannot just take steroids and automatically gain muscle mass. You do have to still work for it.

Look at bodybuilders, they take steroids AND spend hours in the gym.

It was an existing condition when I retired from the Army 15 years ago' date=' at the age of 46, as documented in my physical administered by the VA. I was having problems with it as least as early as my 40th birthday.

Jason Isringhausen has been suffering from osteoarthritis in one hip socket since his early thirties, which strongly suggests that it is the result of a congenital condition, nor from something he took. Now, I don't know that Isringhausen never used steroids, any more than I know that any other ballplayer of the last 50 years didn't use them, but I am absolutely confident that it's possible to suffer from osteoarthritis at a relatively young age without having caused the condition through usage of steroids.

Another example would be Albert Belle. While I also wouldn't argue that Belle didn't use steroids, I think it's a leap to insist his osteoarthritis was caused by steroid usage.

Mayo Clinic

So, what you're telling us is that you know more than the orthopedic surgeons at the Mayo Clinic when you insist that McGwire's osteoarthritis was caused by steroids. Give me a break!

Yes, that's true, but it's hardly proof that any osteoarthritis experienced by McGwire was caused by steroids use. Your same google search should have also informed you that trauma is the most common cause of osteoarthritis among younger males, particularly among football and soccer players who have knee injuries. If you were a big kid growing up in Southern California, it's almost a given that you would have played high school football and have been subjected to peer pressures to at least try steroids.

You're assuming facts for which there is zero credible evidence.

I can't tell you what that was because I'm not one of McGwire's few confidants. I've speculated that it was experimentation with steroids as a teenager growing up in Southern California. You can ask why McGwire wouldn't have admitted that to Congress. Why should he have done that? It wouldn't have made any difference to those who were already convinced that he used steroids for his record breaking 70 home runs.

Yeah, but again the hearing was about steroids in baseball, not what did you do in the summer between your 11th and 12th grade years.

Watch the clip and pay close attention to the questions that McGwire dodges. I'll even type them out for you:

"Never had a problem of seeing your colleagues use drugs, steroids and so on?"

And then the kicker:

"As part of your training routine, in addition to andro which was legal at the time that you used it, what other supplements did you use?"

He's clearly referring to McGwire's andro use in his playing career and what other things he used while he was playing. It's not hard to figure out that the conversation was about McGwire's playing career and what you think he did back when he was growing up.

There's a vast difference between logical speculation and being so pigheaded that one is convinced one's speculation is the gospel truth.

Pot, meet kettle.

Which proves absolutely zero! McGwire's lawyer knew that once he began answering any questions regarding PEDs, he would be unable to stop answering questions which delved into his adolescent behavior or any other aspect of his private life or personal behavior involving any illicit activities or drugs. The lawyer's advice was to not answer any questions along those lines and McGwire followed that advice. His following his lawyer's advice doesn't validate any assumptions about his behavior, except that there was probably something in his past which he wasn't willing to discuss in public.

Again, the topic of the whole entire hearing was "Steroids in Baseball." Not "did you once sniff cocaine off a hooker's ass in 1988?"

I still lean towards the hypothesis that Palmeiro got sandbagged by the vitamin B12 shot from Tejada. We know that Tejada bought his B12 in the Dominican Republic, where the laws on drugs are much laxer than in this country, and we know that some foreign drug companies were selling B12 in combination with stanazol (I've seen the ads on the internet, although they've since disappeared). It's possible that Tejada knew the B12 he gave Palmeiro contained stanazol and it's also possible that Tejada's supplier inadvertently mixed some B12 vials with stanazol into a larger batch of vials which only contained B12 without Tejada knowing. (I don't read the label on each vial of the medicine I use in my nebulizer for my breathing treatments.) Either hypothesis explains how Palmeiro could have received stanazol without knowing it, but they don't explain why he would have been dumb enough to have a fellow player inject B12 into him instead of getting a trainer or doctor to do it.

Regardless, it's irresponsible. If you're an athlete you NEED to know exactly what is being put into your body at all times.

Once again:

You're assuming facts for which there is zero credible evidence.

What's "ignorant" about not accepting the rash conclusions of the public and sports media that they know exactly what McGwire was doing? Most of us don't know that much about what our spouses do.

Really? If I don't know THAT much about what our spouses do, I don't know if that is a marriage I really want to be a part of.

I'm not concluding anything. I think there's a very high chance that he did use them.

You're labeling me "ignorant" because I am not convinced by largely anecdotal evidence about the relationship between steroids and injuries and because I don't accept unsubstantiated allegations that McGwire used steroids.

How come McGwire has never come out and said that he never used them? McGwire has NEVER denied it. Whoops, he did...he just didn't do it when he was under oath. Seems to me if you're really adamant about denying something you'd have no problem denying it under oath at a trial or in a hearing.

To me, that sounds like the remarks of someone who succumbed to pressure from his book publisher to "enhance" his story about how many of his fellow athletes used steroids -- picking those he had played with who were already under suspicion -- then tripped himself up when Mike Wallace pinned him down on specifics.

Once again:

You're assuming facts for which there is zero credible evidence.

The Cardinals knew full well that McGwire's knees would greatly limit his playing time, but they felt his value in drawing fans into the park made the contract worth it. Near the end of his career, McGwire was donating about 10 percent of his contracts with St. Louis to his foundation to aid abused children. Under those circumstances, why wouldn't he have gone ahead and taken the money?

I never said McGwire wasn't a good guy.

However, you're not denying that muscle bound physiques can be built without steroids through hard work and you've acknowledged that McGwire's workouts were strenuous. Why are you denigrating evidence you've already conceded, unless you're simply bankrupt for any rational arguments?

Because, like I said, I think theres a very strong chance that he did do it.

All of which is irrelevant to the fact that there's no credible evidence that McGwire used steroids. Methinks you doth protest too much.

C'mon. At least I'm not wondering what he did when he was 17 in SoCal. Do you know if McGwire even played high school football?

Once again:

You're assuming facts for which there is zero credible evidence.

His downfall was that you and others like you want to jump to conclusions and pretend you know things which you have no way of knowing, and McGwire just happens to be a convenient target.

Hahaha, thats rich. You claim I'm jumping to conclusions and pretend to know things which I have no way of knowing, yet you do the very same thing that you're accusing me of. That's laughable.

As far as McGwire being an easy target, it's not my fault that he is.

I don't think that my loyalty to the Cardinals blinds me at all to the possibilities that some Cardinals players have probably used PEDs.

There's a big difference between pointing out alternative explanations like I've done with Palmeiro and McGwire and simply digging in one's heels and refusing to admit one's opinions might be wrong, which is what you're doing. I'm not trying to prove McGwire didn't use steroids, because I can't. All I'm doing is poking holes in your arguments which cause you to be absolutely certain that he did.

Once again:

You're assuming facts for which there is zero credible evidence.

And:

you want to jump to conclusions and pretend you know things which you have no way of knowing,

I'd be absolutely SHOCKED to see you accuse a Cardinal of wrongdoing. I would have loved to have been here to see your reaction when La Russa got his DUI.

But back to McGwire, I'm not absolutely certain, but I think there's a very high chance that he did. My issue with you is that you never concede that he might have used them and you're not willing to concede that his testimony was not only pathetic, but indicting himself without directly saying it.

Do you ever wonder why he had no problem denying his usage to the press but shriveled up and backed down when under oath? It couldn't be because the truth hurts, right? Once again it seems to me if you're really adamant about denying something you'd have no problem denying it under oath at a trial or in a hearing.

http://beta.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2015420

His voice choked with emotion, his eyes nearly filled with tears, time after time he refused to answer the question everyone wanted to know: Did he take illegal steroids when he hit a then-record 70 home runs in 1998 -- or at any other time?

Asked by Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md., whether he was asserting his Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate himself, McGwire said: "I'm not here to talk about the past. I'm here to be positive about this subject."

I can't imagine that he was crying because he didn't take them. Surely you've watched enough Perry Mason's to know that the guilty party sometimes breaks down and cries when they're busted, right?

Even your boy La Russa think McGwire made a misstep at those hearings:

Friday morning at the team's training camp in Jupiter, Fla., Cardinals manager Tony LaRussa referred to McGwire's testimony as a "missed opportunity." He also said he thought McGwire was "overcoached" by his lawyers.

"He looked uncomfortable the whole time," LaRussa said. "He has been forceful in his statements denying it. I was surprised that he didn't repeat what he had said earlier."

Must have been what he did in high school after football practice. Yep, that's the ticket.

Hey wait...doesn't La Russa practice law?

[Migrant Redbird]

Moose, I'm not going to waste any more time with you! You obviously are not going to change your opinion that McGwire used steroids regardless of how flimsy your rationale is for believing that. What I've said is that I don't know whether he did or not. Everything else is merely pointing out why your rationale is so flimsy. If you can't see that, any further discussion with you is a waste of time for both of us.

[Moose Milligan]

Moose, I'm not going to waste any more time with you! You obviously are not going to change your opinion that McGwire used steroids regardless of how flimsy your rationale is for believing that. What I've said is that I don't know whether he did or not. Everything else is merely pointing out why your rationale is so flimsy. If you can't see that, any further discussion with you is a waste of time for both of us.

How flimsy MY rationale is? You're the one who thinks that McGwire cried at his hearing because of peer pressure to take steroids after football practice in high school when you don't even know if he even played! I'm not the one bringing up cow farmers and bodybuilders from the 30's, either!

I don't know whether he did or not either...but I think there's a very high chance he did.

[mweb]

I find it rather funny that the extremely biased person is calling the rationale of someone without bias "flimsy."

Anyone who cannot admit that McGwire most likely used steroids at some point is either very biased or very illogical.

[Migrant Redbird]

I find it rather funny that the extremely biased person is calling the rationale of someone without bias "flimsy."

Anyone who cannot admit that McGwire most likely used steroids at some point is either very biased or very illogical.

Do you actually have a point? Or are you just bashing?

I've never claimed that McGwire never used steroids. I've just pointed out that there's no credible evidence that he did, and postulated a hypothesis for why he refused to testify on the issue before congress. You don't have to believe the hypothesis to admit that it's a possibility. You don't have to label someone else "biased" to defend your point.

[mweb]

Do you actually have a point? Or are you just bashing?

I've never claimed that McGwire never used steroids. I've just pointed out that there's no credible evidence that he did, and postulated a hypothesis for why he refused to testify on the issue before congress. You don't have to believe the hypothesis to admit that it's a possibility. You don't have to label someone else "biased" to defend your point.

I've made points on this topic several times before. My point is exactly what I said, you're very biased on this topic, and he most likely used steroids. Those are blatantly obvious. No, we don't have scientific evidence or the government finding evidence, or an admission of guilt. But his statements or lack thereof at the hearings are the closest thing one could expect to the latter. There's just not a good reason to refuse to answer that unless he is guilty of using.

How confident would you say you are regarding his usage(or not) of steroids? Can you put a percentage on it?

I'll go 99%.

And as I said earlier, I wouldn't keep guys out of the HOF due to steroid/HGH usage.