Jump to content

Cease vs everyone else


Sports Guy

Recommended Posts

11 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

I suppose my next question would be... would you rather give up Kremer in a trade or both of Povich/McDermott?

First … I’m not giving up Cowser and Ortiz as I do not believe they are getting offered 2 top 50 guys by anyone else. So there is no need to add more than 1 additional prospect. If Elias traded Cowser and Ortiz with no sweetener I wouldn’t think he lost the trade. Anything more and it’s a loser IMO. 
 

In the end, I think one top 100 prospect and a couple other guys gets it done. They need to use him to rebuild. Holding on to him just reduces his value as the clock ticks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

If you think Cease will rebound it makes more sense.  That would be a significant upgrade.

I still don’t …. Unless he agrees to an extension. If you give them Kremer. The value has to be beyond 2 seasons. Honestly even if you get 12 WAR out of Cease over 2 years you still most likely lose the trade.  Kremer is conservatively worth 8 WAR over his remaining 4 years. So one of Cowser/Ortiz would have to be a complete bust. If they both end up being solid MLB players it ends up being a terrible trade. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Roll Tide said:

I still don’t …. Unless he agrees to an extension. If you give them Kremer. The value has to be beyond 2 seasons. Honestly even if you get 12 WAR out of Cease over 2 years you still most likely lose the trade.  Kremer is conservatively worth 8 WAR over his remaining 4 years. So one of Cowser/Ortiz would have to be a complete bust. If they both end up being solid MLB players it ends up being a terrible trade. 

I strongly disagree, if you get 12 wins out of Cease you are very likely going to the playoffs both years with pretty decent odds of doing well once you get there.

That is the goal right? 

Sometimes I'm not so sure everyone here thinks so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

First … I’m not giving up Cowser and Ortiz as I do not believe they are getting offered 2 top 50 guys by anyone else. So there is no need to add more than 1 additional prospect. If Elias traded Cowser and Ortiz with no sweetener I wouldn’t think he lost the trade. Anything more and it’s a loser IMO. 
 

In the end, I think one top 100 prospect and a couple other guys gets it done. They need to use him to rebuild. Holding on to him just reduces his value as the clock ticks.

Didnt quite answer the question. Do you value Kremer more than Povich AND McDermott? Because it seemed like you were opposed to dealing Kremer instead of prospects. Unless you meant all prospects and not just pitching prospects?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

I strongly disagree, if you get 12 wins out of Cease you are very likely going to the playoffs both years with pretty decent odds of doing well once you get there.

That is the goal right? 

Sometimes I'm not so sure everyone here thinks so.

The O's are very likely to go to the playoffs the next two years anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

We can play at what "very likely" means but I'll just say I'd rather have a pitcher that put up a 6 win season in my playoff rotation than Kremer.

 

Yeah, if Cease was guaranteed to put up six wins that would change the equation dramatically.

But he isn't.  So it doesn't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

Then I'm pretty sure the O's won't acquire Cease or anyone like him. 

I’m taking about giving up two prospects (Kjerstad/Cowser and Ortiz) in addition to either Kremer or Povich AND McDermott.  I don’t think we should do it, and I don’t think it’s necessary to do it.  If that is what it would take, I’d rather not have Cease, because it would be a stupid move.  

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

Didnt quite answer the question. Do you value Kremer more than Povich AND McDermott? Because it seemed like you were opposed to dealing Kremer instead of prospects. Unless you meant all prospects and not just pitching prospects?

Povich and McDermott are just prospects, so no! Kremer is a proven MLB starter. 
 

Im fine dealing prospects…. I’m not doing more than the combined value of Cowser and Ortiz. I think a deal is closer to Cowser, Beaver, and Povich. If they were willing to deal Robert I’d send Bradfield and a couple others but it doesn’t sound like it 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I strongly disagree, if you get 12 wins out of Cease you are very likely going to the playoffs both years with pretty decent odds of doing well once you get there.

That is the goal right? 

Sometimes I'm not so sure everyone here thinks so.

12 is the best case… and I’m betting it’s closer to 8. If Cease does better than 8 WAR over the next 2 seasons regardless to where he is I’ll meet and buy you a cold one at Pickles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

12 is the best case… and I’m betting it’s closer to 8. If Cease does better than 8 WAR over the next 2 seasons regardless to where he is I’ll meet and buy you a cold one at Pickles.

That's OK.

I'm not even advocating for the trade, just saying it can make sense.

I don't think he will put up 12 wins.

Eight?  Well he put up 8.6 rWAR and 8.1 fWAR over the last two seasons so I think eight is in reach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Posts

    • dWAR is just the run value for defense added with the defensive adjustment.  Corner OF spots have a -7.5 run adjustment, while CF has a +2.5 adjustment over 150 games.    Since Cowser played both CF and the corners they pro-rate his time at each to calculate his defensive adjustment. 
    • Just to be clear, though, fWAR also includes a substantial adjustment for position, including a negative one for Cowser.  For a clearer example on that front, as the chart posted higher on this page indicates, Carlos Santana had a +14 OAA — which is the source data that fWAR’s defensive component is based on. That 14 outs above average equates to 11-12 (they use different values on this for some reason) runs better than the average 1B.  So does Santana have a 12.0 defensive value, per fWAR? He does not. That’s because they adjust his defensive value downward to reflect that he’s playing a less difficult/valuable position. In this case, that adjustment comes out to -11.0 runs, as you can see here:   So despite apparently having a bona fide Gold Glove season, Santana’s Fielding Runs value (FanGraphs’ equivalent to dWAR) is barely above average, at 1.1 runs.    Any good WAR calculation is going to adjust for position. Being a good 1B just isn’t worth as much as being an average SS or catcher. Just as being a good LF isn’t worth as much as being an average CF. Every outfielder can play LF — only the best outfielders can play CF.  Where the nuance/context shows up here is with Cowser’s unique situation. Playing LF in OPACY, with all that ground to cover, is not the same as playing LF at Fenway or Yankee Stadium. Treating Cowser’s “position” as equivalent to Tyler O’Neill’s, for example, is not fair. The degree of difficulty is much, much higher at OPACY’s LF, and so the adjustment seems out of whack for him. That’s the one place where I’d say the bWAR value is “unfair” to Cowser.
    • Wait a second here, the reason he's -0.1 in bb-ref dwar is because they're using drs to track his defensive run value.  He's worth 6.6 runs in defense according to fangraphs, which includes adjustments for position, which would give him a fangraphs defensive war of +0.7.
    • A little funny to have provided descriptions of the hits (“weak” single; “500 foot” HR). FIP doesn’t care about any of that either, so it’s kind of an odd thing to add in an effort to make ERA look bad.  Come in, strike out the first hitter, then give up three 108 MPH rocket doubles off the wall. FIP thinks you were absolutely outstanding, and it’s a shame your pathetic defense and/or sheer bad luck let you down. Next time you’ll (probably) get the outcomes you deserve. They’re both flawed. So is xFIP. So is SIERA. So is RA/9. So is WPA. So is xERA. None of them are perfect measures of how a pitcher’s actual performance was, because there’s way too much context and too many variables for any one metric to really encompass.  But when I’m thinking about awards, for me at least, it ends up having to be about the actual outcomes. I don’t really care what a hitter’s xWOBA is when I’m thinking about MVP, and the same is true for pitchers. Did you get the outs? Did the runs score? That’s the “value” that translates to the scoreboard and, ultimately, to the standings. So I think the B-R side of it is more sensible for awards.  I definitely take into account the types of factors that you (and other pitching fWAR advocates) reference as flaws. So if a guy plays in front of a particular bad defense or had a particularly high percentage of inherited runners score, I’d absolutely adjust my take to incorporate that info. And I also 100% go to Fangraphs first when I’m trying to figure out which pitchers we should acquire (i.e., for forward looking purposes).  But I just can’t bring myself say that my Cy Young is just whichever guy had the best ratio of Ks to BBs to HRs over a threshold number of innings. As @Frobby said, it just distills out too much of what actually happened.
    • We were all a lot younger in 2005.  No one wanted to believe Canseco cause he’s a smarmy guy. Like I said, he was the only one telling the truth. It wasn’t a leap of faith to see McGwire up there and Sosa up there and think “yeah, those guys were juicing” but then suddenly look at Raffy and think he was completely innocent.  It’s a sad story. The guy should be in Hall of Fame yet 500 homers and 3,000 hits are gone like a fart in the wind cause his legacy is wagging his finger and thinking he couldn’t get caught.  Don’t fly too close to the sun.  
    • I think if we get the fun sprinkler loving Gunnar that was in the dugout yesterday, I don’t think we have to worry about him pressing. He seemed loose and feeling good with the other guys he was with, like Kremer.
    • I was a lot younger back then, but that betrayal hit really hard because he had been painting himself as literally holier than thou, and shook his finger to a congressional committee and then barely 2 weeks later failed the test.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...