Jump to content

A Different Way of Thinking About the Trade Deadline


Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Greg Pappas said:

@Tony-OH is the go-to person to get a good take on a player's skillset.  Tony, what are your thoughts on Norby at 2B?  Can he be average (or better) at 2B?  If so, that upgrades my view on just how valuable he could be.

I don't think he'll be an average defender at 2B. Is he playable? Maybe. But he'll need to really hit well to make up for his sub par defense. Maybe he can still improve, I don't know, but he's just so inconsistent over there and his range to his right is not good at all. I like him better in the corner outfield positions. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

He definitely isn't an elite prospect. But nobody is trading a Holliday or Basallo type for Fedde or Anderson. Norby should have value to a team in need of a bat. I believe he was a fringe top 100 prospect at one point and I don't think he has done anything to lose value.

He’s got older that about it.  He would be playing in the majors at pretty much every other team at this point.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, interloper said:

Scott is such a logical trade that I'm kind of wondering why it hasn't already happened. 

I'm assuming it's because the Marlins want the best deal possible and want to get as many bidders involved as possible?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Roy Firestone said:

I have PTSD . Post Tanner Scott derangement. No to him. And he's only a rental anyway. Pass.

I think he can be useful, not as a closer, but as a setup weapon

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, interloper said:

Givens says hi. 😉

It isn't the same thing at all.

In one case you trade a guy for something and then bring him back to no cost beyond the salary.

In the other you trade a guy when his value is low and then trade, with the same team, for him back at what is sure to be a higher price.

You think the Marlins would take Jud Fabian for him?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

It isn't the same thing at all.

In one case you trade a guy for something and then bring him back to no cost beyond the salary.

In the other you trade a guy when his value is low and then trade, with the same team, for him back at what is sure to be a higher price.

You think the Marlins would take Jud Fabian for him?

I mean I know, I was just trying to have my little gotcha moment. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Maybe Elias doesn't want to bring back someone he traded away.

I get the same vibe with Harvey. Pure speculation I am guessing there may be clubhouse or coachability issues, otherwise Elias would have kept them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/18/2024 at 4:26 PM, Aristotelian said:

Agreed. Stowers is another guy I think could have way more value to other teams than to us. Norby for a starter and Stowers for a bullpen arm are frameworks for deals we can reasonably expect, IMO.

Bumping this thread. It does appear at least so far that Elias's strategy was indeed to use Norby/Stowers on the sell side. I thought we might get a little more than Rogers but appears money and control are still important, even under the new ownership. The question is, now that Norby and Stowers are gone, what do we have left to offer to get a bullpen arm in the next 3+ hours, if Mayo/Basallo/Holliday/Kjerstad are untouchable? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Posts

    • dWAR is just the run value for defense added with the defensive adjustment.  Corner OF spots have a -7.5 run adjustment, while CF has a +2.5 adjustment over 150 games.    Since Cowser played both CF and the corners they pro-rate his time at each to calculate his defensive adjustment. 
    • Just to be clear, though, fWAR also includes a substantial adjustment for position, including a negative one for Cowser.  For a clearer example on that front, as the chart posted higher on this page indicates, Carlos Santana had a +14 OAA — which is the source data that fWAR’s defensive component is based on. That 14 outs above average equates to 11-12 (they use different values on this for some reason) runs better than the average 1B.  So does Santana have a 12.0 defensive value, per fWAR? He does not. That’s because they adjust his defensive value downward to reflect that he’s playing a less difficult/valuable position. In this case, that adjustment comes out to -11.0 runs, as you can see here:   So despite apparently having a bona fide Gold Glove season, Santana’s Fielding Runs value (FanGraphs’ equivalent to dWAR) is barely above average, at 1.1 runs.    Any good WAR calculation is going to adjust for position. Being a good 1B just isn’t worth as much as being an average SS or catcher. Just as being a good LF isn’t worth as much as being an average CF. Every outfielder can play LF — only the best outfielders can play CF.  Where the nuance/context shows up here is with Cowser’s unique situation. Playing LF in OPACY, with all that ground to cover, is not the same as playing LF at Fenway or Yankee Stadium. Treating Cowser’s “position” as equivalent to Tyler O’Neill’s, for example, is not fair. The degree of difficulty is much, much higher at OPACY’s LF, and so the adjustment seems out of whack for him. That’s the one place where I’d say the bWAR value is “unfair” to Cowser.
    • Wait a second here, the reason he's -0.1 in bb-ref dwar is because they're using drs to track his defensive run value.  He's worth 6.6 runs in defense according to fangraphs, which includes adjustments for position, which would give him a fangraphs defensive war of +0.7.
    • A little funny to have provided descriptions of the hits (“weak” single; “500 foot” HR). FIP doesn’t care about any of that either, so it’s kind of an odd thing to add in an effort to make ERA look bad.  Come in, strike out the first hitter, then give up three 108 MPH rocket doubles off the wall. FIP thinks you were absolutely outstanding, and it’s a shame your pathetic defense and/or sheer bad luck let you down. Next time you’ll (probably) get the outcomes you deserve. They’re both flawed. So is xFIP. So is SIERA. So is RA/9. So is WPA. So is xERA. None of them are perfect measures of how a pitcher’s actual performance was, because there’s way too much context and too many variables for any one metric to really encompass.  But when I’m thinking about awards, for me at least, it ends up having to be about the actual outcomes. I don’t really care what a hitter’s xWOBA is when I’m thinking about MVP, and the same is true for pitchers. Did you get the outs? Did the runs score? That’s the “value” that translates to the scoreboard and, ultimately, to the standings. So I think the B-R side of it is more sensible for awards.  I definitely take into account the types of factors that you (and other pitching fWAR advocates) reference as flaws. So if a guy plays in front of a particular bad defense or had a particularly high percentage of inherited runners score, I’d absolutely adjust my take to incorporate that info. And I also 100% go to Fangraphs first when I’m trying to figure out which pitchers we should acquire (i.e., for forward looking purposes).  But I just can’t bring myself say that my Cy Young is just whichever guy had the best ratio of Ks to BBs to HRs over a threshold number of innings. As @Frobby said, it just distills out too much of what actually happened.
    • We were all a lot younger in 2005.  No one wanted to believe Canseco cause he’s a smarmy guy. Like I said, he was the only one telling the truth. It wasn’t a leap of faith to see McGwire up there and Sosa up there and think “yeah, those guys were juicing” but then suddenly look at Raffy and think he was completely innocent.  It’s a sad story. The guy should be in Hall of Fame yet 500 homers and 3,000 hits are gone like a fart in the wind cause his legacy is wagging his finger and thinking he couldn’t get caught.  Don’t fly too close to the sun.  
    • I think if we get the fun sprinkler loving Gunnar that was in the dugout yesterday, I don’t think we have to worry about him pressing. He seemed loose and feeling good with the other guys he was with, like Kremer.
    • I was a lot younger back then, but that betrayal hit really hard because he had been painting himself as literally holier than thou, and shook his finger to a congressional committee and then barely 2 weeks later failed the test.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...