Jump to content

Can Cowser still win Rookie of The Year over Gil/Wells ?


jem709

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Frobby said:

A couple of things: 

1.  fWAR no longer uses UZR.   They switched to OAA and other Statcast measures this year.   

2.  I’m not a fan of using FIP to evaluate pitchers’ performance.  I wouldn’t call it Fielding Independent Pitching, I’d call it Context ignorant pitching.  Pitcher A allows a double and a run scoring single and then has two clean innings.  Pitcher B allows a two out double one inning and a two out single the next inning and nobody scores.   FIP treats Pitcher A and Pitcher B the same.   I don’t buy it.  Minimizing damage is an important part of pitching, and if you are measuring value, as opposed to trying to predict what a pitcher might go in the future, treating those pitchers the same is plain wrong.  
 

Even more of a reason to like FG over BBref,  tbh. Thanks, didn’t realize they switched this year.

My point re: FIP is that I rather prefer it over RA/9, not to say it’s perfect. RA/9 treats all runs allowed by a pitcher the same regardless of them being earned or unearned. So, a pitcher on a team with a terrible defense is going to be judged much more harshly than somebody that pitches on a top tier defense. Not to mention the bullpen taking over mid inning dilemma. The funny thing is in your example re: FIP, RA/9 would have the first pitcher but love the second. Either way, these stats, like nearly all single solitary stats, aren’t best taken alone. 

For your example, let’s say Pitcher A allowed weak contact and the defenders just had poor range, poor arms, whatever, but in the second example the defenders had great range and great arms making amazing plays to prevent any damage…then what? 

Anyways, give me FIP over RA/9 was my point. But if you want to truly assess a pitcher, you’re going to need a few complimentary stats to go along with it.

 

Edited by LookitsPuck
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Warehouse said:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5790069/2024/09/25/mlb-awards-2024-keith-law-picks/?source=user_shared_article

Keith Law says it’s clearly Cowser (he has Gil runner up and Langford third), though in a backhanded sort of way.

“Two things can be true at the same time: Colton Cowser has been the best rookie in the American League this year, and Colton Cowser is a flawed player who can’t play every day on a playoff team. By any measure, Cowser is leading AL rookies in WAR, and it’s not that close. “

I like Law a lot, but that is a beyond asinine comment about not playing every day on a playoff team. You know how many playoff teams would slot him in the lineup immediately every game? Answer: the large majority.

The Yankees would take Cowser over Verdugo

The Tigers might not put him in over Greene/Meadows/Carpenter, but they’d DH him over their options.

Cowser would start over every outfielder for the Royals, IMHO.

He’d start over Meyers and Dubon for the Astros.

The Guardians would probably start him over anybody not named Kwan in the OF, tbh. 

I can keep going.

Edited by LookitsPuck
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Frobby said:

A couple of things: 

1.  fWAR no longer uses UZR.   They switched to OAA and other Statcast measures this year.   

2.  I’m not a fan of using FIP to evaluate pitchers’ performance.  I wouldn’t call it Fielding Independent Pitching, I’d call it Context ignorant pitching.  Pitcher A allows a double and a run scoring single and then has two clean innings.  Pitcher B allows a two out double one inning and a two out single the next inning and nobody scores.   FIP treats Pitcher A and Pitcher B the same.   I don’t buy it.  Minimizing damage is an important part of pitching, and if you are measuring value, as opposed to trying to predict what a pitcher might go in the future, treating those pitchers the same is plain wrong.  
 

Are you OK with context independent batting inputs that are used in WAR?  It feels like pitching and hitting should be symmetrical in terms of how they factor in sequencing.  

FRV is definitely better than DRS for outfielders, as @tangotiger convincingly argues here.  For infielders, it’s more debatable, especially 1B where only DRS accounts for picks.

By the way, Fangraphs WAR leaderboard allows you to toggle between FIP, RA9, and a 50/50 mix.  Cowser beats Gil regardless of the approach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Warehouse said:

Are you OK with context independent batting inputs that are used in WAR?  It feels like pitching and hitting should be symmetrical in terms of how they factor in sequencing.  

Problem is, the batter isn’t in control of what the hitters in front of him do.   The pitcher creates much of his own context.  

That said, the lack of context in position player WAR is a good reason not to use WAR as the sole basis to decide things like MVP.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Please don’t compare OAA and dWAR.  OAA and dWAR are not comparable stats.  First of all, OAA is measured in outs, while dWAR is measured in wins.   That’s a very different scale.   Second, OAA is not adjusting for difficulty of position, while dWAR contains a significant adjustment for position.   Third, OAA measures range but doesn’t measure the throwing aspect of being an outfielder.  

If you want to compare apples to apples (and I assume you do), Statcast has a statistic called Fielding Runs Value that converts OAA plus the throwing aspect into runs.   Cowser has a +10 FRV, which as the names implies, is measured in runs.  FRV feeds directly into the fWAR calculation, along with a factor that adjusts for difficulty of position, which for Cowser is measured at -4.1 runs.   Meanwhile, rWAR uses Defensive Runs Saved (DRS), which is directly comparable to FRV.  Cowser has a +3 DRS, not as good as his +10 FRV.   Those are the comparable stats, and the 7 run difference converts to about 0.7 WAR. That’s the main difference between Cowser’s 4.1 fWAR and 3.2 rWAR.

I see that after Gil’s poor performance yesterday, Cowser now leads him in both rWAR (3.2 to 3.1) and fWAR (4.1 to 2.2).   So, I like Cowser’s chances.  
 


 

I assume you just used my post and were not trying to "teach" me the differences between all of those stats. I'm sure you know I know all of this, right?

OAA and dWAR are two "stats" that are designed to give the defensive value of a player. What I said was that I tend to believe the OAA assessment of Cowser's worth more than the dWAR.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I assume you just used my post and were not trying to "teach" me the differences between all of those stats. I'm sure you know I know all of this, right?

OAA and dWAR are two "stats" that are designed to give the defensive value of a player. What I said was that I tend to believe the OAA assessment of Cowser's worth more than the dWAR.

I don’t agree that OAA and dWAR both are designed to measure the defensive value of a player.  OAA doesn’t consider the value of the position the player plays.  It just compares the player to others who play his position.   Nobody would say that a +10 LF has the same value as a +10 SS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I don’t agree that OAA and dWAR both are designed to measure the defensive value of a player.  OAA doesn’t consider the value of the position the player plays.  It just compares the player to others who play his position.   Nobody would say that a +10 LF has the same value as a +10 SS.

Well, they would measure the defensive value of a player relative to other players playing the same position. If you’re comparing across positions, well, that does get tricky. 

On the plus side, the fWAR calculation is fairly robust even if we are talking about a switch from UZR to OAA/FRP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I don’t agree that OAA and dWAR both are designed to measure the defensive value of a player.  OAA doesn’t consider the value of the position the player plays.  It just compares the player to others who play his position.   Nobody would say that a +10 LF has the same value as a +10 SS.

No one is saying they are exactly the same. They are both designed to show some kind of defensive ability. No one is arguing that a +10 LF has the same value as a +10 SS. No one.

Cowser gets a hit on dWAR value because he plays LF, but Camden Yards LF is not a normal LF so it's not an apples to apples situation. That's one of the limitations of the dWAR metric. 

OAA has some limitations as well, but my entire point is that Cowser's 10 OAA this season mostly in LF seems to be more accurate to show that he's a plus defender vs more of an average defender that the -0.1 dWAR shows. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

No one is saying they are exactly the same. They are both designed to show some kind of defensive ability. No one is arguing that a +10 LF has the same value as a +10 SS. No one.

Cowser gets a hit on dWAR value because he plays LF, but Camden Yards LF is not a normal LF so it's not an apples to apples situation. That's one of the limitations of the dWAR metric. 

OAA has some limitations as well, but my entire point is that Cowser's 10 OAA this season mostly in LF seems to be more accurate to show that he's a plus defender vs more of an average defender that the -0.1 dWAR shows. 

 

Especially if you look at the OAA leaderboard. Tied for 8th amongst outfielders, and 20th when accounting for all positions.

IMG_2035.png

IMG_2034.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

No one is saying they are exactly the same. They are both designed to show some kind of defensive ability. No one is arguing that a +10 LF has the same value as a +10 SS. No one.

Cowser gets a hit on dWAR value because he plays LF, but Camden Yards LF is not a normal LF so it's not an apples to apples situation. That's one of the limitations of the dWAR metric. 

OAA has some limitations as well, but my entire point is that Cowser's 10 OAA this season mostly in LF seems to be more accurate to show that he's a plus defender vs more of an average defender that the -0.1 dWAR shows. 

 

I agree with this.

 

dWar assigning a negative value to him just because he plays LF shows how flawed a statistic it is. Doesn't pass the eye test, unless you just think basically all outfielders are negatives defensively and all the defensive value is in the infield? I'm trying to understand what the argument could be that cowser is negative WAR defensively. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, capyy said:

I agree with this.

 

dWar assigning a negative value to him just because he plays LF shows how flawed a statistic it is. Doesn't pass the eye test, unless you just think basically all outfielders are negatives defensively and all the defensive value is in the infield? I'm trying to understand what the argument could be that cowser is negative WAR defensively. 

Especially since DRS and OAA really like Cowser.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Frobby said:

A couple of things: 

2.  I’m not a fan of using FIP to evaluate pitchers’ performance.  I wouldn’t call it Fielding Independent Pitching, I’d call it Context ignorant pitching.  Pitcher A allows a double and a run scoring single and then has two clean innings.  Pitcher B allows a two out double one inning and a two out single the next inning and nobody scores.   FIP treats Pitcher A and Pitcher B the same.   I don’t buy it.  Minimizing damage is an important part of pitching, and if you are measuring value, as opposed to trying to predict what a pitcher might go in the future, treating those pitchers the same is plain wrong.  
 

I completely disagree with this and more importantly so do ML pitchers, coaches, and front offices.

The minimizing damage argument is weak. Pitcher A gives up a weak infield single and then leaves the game and Pitcher B gives up a 500 ft HR, ERA says they get equally charged with 1 earned run. How is that not context ignorant?

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

no stat is perfect, it's just picking which is less wrong... and the dWAr appears much more wrong to me. and the context issue seems relatively minor complaint. xFIP is considered one of the most predictive stats for pitcher success afaik. imperfect but perhaps the best we got? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, luismatos4prez said:

I completely disagree with this and more importantly so do ML pitchers, coaches, and front offices.

The minimizing damage argument is weak. Pitcher A gives up a weak infield single and then leaves the game and Pitcher B gives up a 500 ft HR, ERA says they get equally charged with 1 earned run. How is that not context ignorant?

A little funny to have provided descriptions of the hits (“weak” single; “500 foot” HR). FIP doesn’t care about any of that either, so it’s kind of an odd thing to add in an effort to make ERA look bad. 

Come in, strike out the first hitter, then give up three 108 MPH rocket doubles off the wall. FIP thinks you were absolutely outstanding, and it’s a shame your pathetic defense and/or sheer bad luck let you down. Next time you’ll (probably) get the outcomes you deserve.

They’re both flawed. So is xFIP. So is SIERA. So is RA/9. So is WPA. So is xERA. None of them are perfect measures of how a pitcher’s actual performance was, because there’s way too much context and too many variables for any one metric to really encompass. 

But when I’m thinking about awards, for me at least, it ends up having to be about the actual outcomes. I don’t really care what a hitter’s xWOBA is when I’m thinking about MVP, and the same is true for pitchers. Did you get the outs? Did the runs score? That’s the “value” that translates to the scoreboard and, ultimately, to the standings. So I think the B-R side of it is more sensible for awards. 

I definitely take into account the types of factors that you (and other pitching fWAR advocates) reference as flaws. So if a guy plays in front of a particular bad defense or had a particularly high percentage of inherited runners score, I’d absolutely adjust my take to incorporate that info. And I also 100% go to Fangraphs first when I’m trying to figure out which pitchers we should acquire (i.e., for forward looking purposes). 

But I just can’t bring myself say that my Cy Young is just whichever guy had the best ratio of Ks to BBs to HRs over a threshold number of innings. As @Frobby said, it just distills out too much of what actually happened.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

No one is saying they are exactly the same. They are both designed to show some kind of defensive ability. No one is arguing that a +10 LF has the same value as a +10 SS. No one.

Cowser gets a hit on dWAR value because he plays LF, but Camden Yards LF is not a normal LF so it's not an apples to apples situation. That's one of the limitations of the dWAR metric. 

OAA has some limitations as well, but my entire point is that Cowser's 10 OAA this season mostly in LF seems to be more accurate to show that he's a plus defender vs more of an average defender that the -0.1 dWAR shows. 

 

Wait a second here, the reason he's -0.1 in bb-ref dwar is because they're using drs to track his defensive run value.  He's worth 6.6 runs in defense according to fangraphs, which includes adjustments for position, which would give him a fangraphs defensive war of +0.7.

Edited by Hallas
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Posts

    • dWAR is just the run value for defense added with the defensive adjustment.  Corner OF spots have a -7.5 run adjustment, while CF has a +2.5 adjustment over 150 games.    Since Cowser played both CF and the corners they pro-rate his time at each to calculate his defensive adjustment. 
    • Just to be clear, though, fWAR also includes a substantial adjustment for position, including a negative one for Cowser.  For a clearer example on that front, as the chart posted higher on this page indicates, Carlos Santana had a +14 OAA — which is the source data that fWAR’s defensive component is based on. That 14 outs above average equates to 11-12 (they use different values on this for some reason) runs better than the average 1B.  So does Santana have a 12.0 defensive value, per fWAR? He does not. That’s because they adjust his defensive value downward to reflect that he’s playing a less difficult/valuable position. In this case, that adjustment comes out to -11.0 runs, as you can see here:   So despite apparently having a bona fide Gold Glove season, Santana’s Fielding Runs value (FanGraphs’ equivalent to dWAR) is barely above average, at 1.1 runs.    Any good WAR calculation is going to adjust for position. Being a good 1B just isn’t worth as much as being an average SS or catcher. Just as being a good LF isn’t worth as much as being an average CF. Every outfielder can play LF — only the best outfielders can play CF.  Where the nuance/context shows up here is with Cowser’s unique situation. Playing LF in OPACY, with all that ground to cover, is not the same as playing LF at Fenway or Yankee Stadium. Treating Cowser’s “position” as equivalent to Tyler O’Neill’s, for example, is not fair. The degree of difficulty is much, much higher at OPACY’s LF, and so the adjustment seems out of whack for him. That’s the one place where I’d say the bWAR value is “unfair” to Cowser.
    • Wait a second here, the reason he's -0.1 in bb-ref dwar is because they're using drs to track his defensive run value.  He's worth 6.6 runs in defense according to fangraphs, which includes adjustments for position, which would give him a fangraphs defensive war of +0.7.
    • A little funny to have provided descriptions of the hits (“weak” single; “500 foot” HR). FIP doesn’t care about any of that either, so it’s kind of an odd thing to add in an effort to make ERA look bad.  Come in, strike out the first hitter, then give up three 108 MPH rocket doubles off the wall. FIP thinks you were absolutely outstanding, and it’s a shame your pathetic defense and/or sheer bad luck let you down. Next time you’ll (probably) get the outcomes you deserve. They’re both flawed. So is xFIP. So is SIERA. So is RA/9. So is WPA. So is xERA. None of them are perfect measures of how a pitcher’s actual performance was, because there’s way too much context and too many variables for any one metric to really encompass.  But when I’m thinking about awards, for me at least, it ends up having to be about the actual outcomes. I don’t really care what a hitter’s xWOBA is when I’m thinking about MVP, and the same is true for pitchers. Did you get the outs? Did the runs score? That’s the “value” that translates to the scoreboard and, ultimately, to the standings. So I think the B-R side of it is more sensible for awards.  I definitely take into account the types of factors that you (and other pitching fWAR advocates) reference as flaws. So if a guy plays in front of a particular bad defense or had a particularly high percentage of inherited runners score, I’d absolutely adjust my take to incorporate that info. And I also 100% go to Fangraphs first when I’m trying to figure out which pitchers we should acquire (i.e., for forward looking purposes).  But I just can’t bring myself say that my Cy Young is just whichever guy had the best ratio of Ks to BBs to HRs over a threshold number of innings. As @Frobby said, it just distills out too much of what actually happened.
    • We were all a lot younger in 2005.  No one wanted to believe Canseco cause he’s a smarmy guy. Like I said, he was the only one telling the truth. It wasn’t a leap of faith to see McGwire up there and Sosa up there and think “yeah, those guys were juicing” but then suddenly look at Raffy and think he was completely innocent.  It’s a sad story. The guy should be in Hall of Fame yet 500 homers and 3,000 hits are gone like a fart in the wind cause his legacy is wagging his finger and thinking he couldn’t get caught.  Don’t fly too close to the sun.  
    • I think if we get the fun sprinkler loving Gunnar that was in the dugout yesterday, I don’t think we have to worry about him pressing. He seemed loose and feeling good with the other guys he was with, like Kremer.
    • I was a lot younger back then, but that betrayal hit really hard because he had been painting himself as literally holier than thou, and shook his finger to a congressional committee and then barely 2 weeks later failed the test.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...