Tony-OH

I agree with Fangraphs. That's a very accurate analysis of Westburg. His athleticism and quickness makes him have the ability to move and play adequate defense around the infield. I think he could be a plus 2B, but I think his arm would make him just adequate at 3B because he would struggle to make those plays where a plus arm is needed. He also has pretty good hands overall. But I'd disagree with anyone thinks that he has a plus arm. He has maybe a 50 arm for 2B, 40 arm for SS, 45 for 3B.

I'm working on gathering the data now and talking to folks. So hopefully by the end of October I'll start releasing them. I know others will release quicker, but I have process to follow so I can try and be the most accurate. Here's a nugget though! .... .... .... Gunnar Henderson is going to be #1

We're kinda talking this is no two different threads, but since this is his thread, I'll try and keep my comments here. As I said in the other thread his 55 FV on his speed was based on the video I saw of him in college and I'll be honest, I'm a little surprised I went that high. Now, I've had a lot of time to watch him this year and there is no way I think he could effectively play CF unless he has some kind of phenomenal jump and route numbers that I don't know about. Again, I haven't timed him yet but he looks slower to me than Stowers who the Orioles gave 58 CF starts to despite his having 43 percentile sprint speed at the major league level upon arrival. So I guess what I'm saying is don't pay a ton of attention to where the Orioles play their prospects because they have really taken some kind of mad hatter approach to developing position players by rarely only playing them at the position they most likely will play at the major league level. I'm not a fan of this approach personally unless you are looking at a player to provide versatility at the major league level. I could see Westburg becoming a right-handed super utility so it makes sense for him to play all over, but I would have preferred that Henderson had played mostly 3B so he could focus on getting better. If they think Kjerstad is a RF, play him RF. If they think he's a 1B, start playing him there so he gets experience. Lastly, the Orioles provide the positions where they want their prospects played in the AFL but they will give additional positions in case there is a need. This might just be a case where they needed a CF and Kjerstad had it down as an alternative position. It's worth noting that he never played one game in CF in the minors or college.

I'll be honest, I didn't realize how bad Mancini bombed with the Astros. That's ashamed because we all obviously like him, but he needed to go to free up the DH spot so Rutschman could still play everyday when not catching. The fact that we received two legitimate top 30-prospects for a little more than two month of him is a great trade.

Westburg has 45 arm and that's why they think he's better suited for 2B. I agree with your best defensive infield alignment. That particular defensive alignment would be great because you'd be playing a legitimate major league SS (Ortiz) at second base where he's GG caliber.

I'd like that grade back after watching him this year. Remember, that was a grade based off his reports prior to all of his issues. I was basing that off what I saw in videos in college, now I think he's probably a 40/45 runner, but I will time him a few time in videos and get a real value soon.

Just because he's playing there does not mean he's "capable" of playing there effectively, especially in the big leagues. Any outfielder can play CF, it's just a matter of whether they have speed, jumps and routes to play there effectively. Kyle Stowers made 58 starts in CF in the minors for the Orioles. After watching him this year, do you think he should play CF? Kjerstad to me looks pretty slow though I haven't timed him. He looks slower than Stowers so I don't think CF is going to be a legitimate option.

That's a reasonable assessment to me. He's a pretty solid 4th outfielder for sure and what a good team looks for. He doesn't have the speed and defense that is ideal, like McKenna, but he does provide some pop.

We can talk all day about the ball and the park effects, but he's the real issue with Hays. His barrel % went from 9.1 % to 5.6% with 6.7% being major league AVG. Everything from his EV, to hard hit % all fell this year. All of his offensive and defensive MLB percental rankings fell below 50% but his K%, WHIF %, arm strength and sprint speed. The Orioles need better in LF next year. The problem is neither Stowers or Santander played well in LF defensively and Cowser may need more AAA PAs before being deemed ready.

You do realize there is not a single person in this thread concerned over Reed being the guy who was DFA'd, right?

So you aren't the least bit interested in why a professional GM would add 30 plus year players onto his 40-man roster for what seems like no real reason to make his organization better? He could sign a Eddie Gaedel's ghost and you'd be like, eh, who cares, right? No, these players don't matter. What matters is that the GM is making moves that make zero sense.

I'll be honest, I do not know. And since the Orioles removed any press that they could not control the narrative from including me, I can't even get a feel for how the decisions are made on the lineup and pitching. Maybe ask one of the media to actually ask Hyde or Elias instead of all the softball questions they get asked.

None of this can bode well for a team that needs to spend in order to take that next step. The sooner this team can be sold, the better off this organization will be barring another Angelos type buying it.

How many times do I need to tell you that I agree with this statement? Who disagreed with that statement? The statement that you said was largely WRONG was "This was always a .500 team that played a few games over their heads - and there was no combination of moves to be made at the deadline that would have changed that significantly." That's an opinion that you can not prove is wrong. You can disagree, but there is no way to know what moves would have made the team actually play better. Sure, we can say bringing this guy up, or playing this guy more COULD have made the team better, but there is no way of knowing that for sure. That's my only point in all of this. His opinion is an opinion that no one can prove is right or wrong because we have no way of knowing how a combination of moves would have performed down the stretch as Orioles. I'm not even saying I agree or disagree with the statement, I'm just saying that you can't say that statement is wrong because it can not be proven wrong. You can only disagree and have another opinion.

I'm not sure I ever saw a catcher AAA drop more pitches that hit his mitt than Nottingham. BR is all messed up right now so I can't pull up his PBs, but his framing was pretty awful as well.

Rob, as usual, you miss the point when you are called out on your disrespectful attitude towards people. You can prove Rutschman was not a mediocre catcher with statistics that show him ranked among other major league catchers. So that's what I mean by you can prove an opinion wrong with stats or FACTS. As for your argument about making moves or not, you can not prove that moves made would have improved the team and made them make the playoffs because you don't know how players will perform on new teams. Reading through the rest of your post, you are all over the place. I agree with you that Elias was not focused on making this team a legitimate contender this year. In fact, I don't think anyone disagree with that. His moves at the deadline prove that. But you or no one else can say it's a fact that if he had brought up this player earlier or makes this trade that the team would definitely had made the playoffs because that's an opinion that can't be backed by facts. It's just an opinion. At the end of the day, treat everyone with respect. If you can use stats or facts to prove an opinion wrong, go for it, but it has to be proven with facts and using your opinion as the reason why it's wrong is not a fact.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on your conclusion that Elias basically let this team run it's course, but my issue is that his lineups didn't line up to that bottom line of looking towards the future this season. The scary part for me is that he felt Aguilar and Odor were the players who should be playing instead of guys like Stowers or Vavra and giving them that experience. In my mind, his trades of Lopez and Mancini signaled that he was still looking into the future and not worried about 2022. I was fine with his trades as i didn't believe this team was a true contender either. Flash forward a month and the Orioles were certainly a contender despite the moves, so what do he do to "sure up a lineup that struggled against lefties?" He signs a washed up Jesus Aguilar who had been terrible all season and particularly terrible against left-handed pitching. then he takes PAs away from Stowers who mashed AAA lefties because he happened to bat left-handed. So yes, in one hand, he decides this team would play as is and it over achieved to the point it was a legitimate contender until about about the second week in September. Once it was, Aguilar was his answer to "help". He allowed Stowers to be a part-time platoon player and then when Vavra screwed up a dp opportunity he allowed him to get buried for weeks while Aguilar and Odor played and the Orioles sank.

I just don't get why you say stuff like this. How about, "I'm just going to have to disagree with you" vs telling somebody they are "largely wrong." You can't prove anyone was right or wrong, all you can do is have opinions that you disagree with on whether the Orioles did the right things or not. you have your OPINION and other people have their OPINIONS and none of you know if you were right or wrong because we have no idea how any of this would have turned out other than how it actually turned out. Anything else is just an OPINION and while you can disagree with an opinion, you can't tell them they are wrong unless you can back your opinion with facts/stats/information that proves you are right.

I don't recall them adding 33 year old back up AAA catchers and a 30-year old outfielder who can't hit to the roster in the past. Most of the guys they've done this with our younger guys they could claim, the DFA and try to outright them to AAA instead of bidding with other teams for their services. Nobody would be bidding on Bemboom or Cave. I'm not reading anything into the moves, they just completely and utterly befuddle me why these were necessary moves.

I'm not sure we disagree here and in fact, Elias basically said this year was about winning but not about contending. The fact that we ended up contending so late was icing on the cake for Elias. At least that's how I read his moves and statements. As I'm sure you know, I had issues on how they used Stowers particularly, but you can make a case for Vavra too. But I'll be honest, I was completely fine with trading both Lopez and Mancini. Mancini freed up the DH spot and Lopez allowed Bautista to close. On top of it, we gained 3 top 30 prospects out of the deal and one (Povich) has some real upside as a legitimate left-hander starter for this team in the future.

Huh? Bemboom was in the organization all last year and wasn't good at hitting AAA pitchers and was awful in his major league time like he's been his whole career. What magic potion makes a 33-year old catcher a better hitter?

The red part is absolutely correct and the trading of Lopez and Mancini for prospects showed what he thought at the deadline. Personally, I agree with him and when you see lineups late in the year with Aguilar, Odor and Chirinos and McKenna in them, you have to admit, this team was not ready to be a real contender. Now we can discuss back and forth on whether keeping Mancini and Lopez would have made the team better down the stretch, but when I look at prospects in the system, I see three guys from those trades that will be in that top 30. That means he added depth into the system which should help him trade for more major league ready players. Whether he can do that or not effectively is the part that we don't know about Elias.

This is what some people seem to be missing. Why would they think they need Cave or Bemboom in the first place. Why would they need to be "protected" from filing FA, If you can sign these kinds of guys as minor league free agents in the off season? Shake a minor league tree and ten Cave and Bemboom's fall out. Adding AAA filler on the 40-man right now doesn't mean much because I agree, these guys will most likely be gone before the 40-man is set this December, but it's certainly befuddling that they feel a need to add them now. BTW, who they dropped off don't matter since there are plenty of guys that can be dropped without concern. It's who they are adding right now that's very, very strange.

Ok, after today's move to add a soon to be 30-year old outfielder who can't hit to the 40-man roster, I'm using RZNJ's suggestion and starting a thread with this title. Just to keep count of the first two: 1. Elias adds Anthony Bemboom, a soon to be 33-year old minor league back up catcher to 40-man as his first offseason move. 2. Elias claims Jake Cave off waivers, a soon to be 30-year old outfielder who slashed .206/.262/.352/.614 in his last 478 PAs since 2020. Feel free to keep adding to this list as Elias continues his bizarro offseason so far.

Brett Phillips be like: