Where might Machado wind up if not in Baltimore.

[CheeryO]

12 hours ago, Eddie_Murray33 said:

Thinking of the Dodgers in particular- could easily see them adding Manny and putting Seager on the bench or trading him. Their "budget" is literally irrelevant. 

NYY of course (though I have my reservations above). I hear you on Miami, Philadelphia and NY Mets- though all seem risky (in an A-ROD/Texas kind of way) IMHO- particularly if you have similar offers on the table from say the Dodgers, NYY and Orioles (where you've already thrived). Who knows though...

There is really no reason to believe Manny Machado is a better player than Corey Seager.  The opposite may well end up being true.  In any case if the Dodgers pursued Machado it would to play both Seager and Machado on the left side of the diamond.

[ArtVanDelay]

11 minutes ago, CheeryO said:

I hate to say it, but Manny isn't in the same league as those players yet -- and all of those contracts already look like they're busts.  I think Manny is probably more valuable to the O's in a trade than he is on the field in a $250 - $300 million deal.

....what?

Manny is easily better than Stanton.

[Dark Helmet]

24 minutes ago, CheeryO said:

I hate to say it, but Manny isn't in the same league as those players yet -- and all of those contracts already look like they're busts.  I think Manny is probably more valuable to the O's in a trade than he is on the field in a $250 - $300 million deal.

Considering Manny's production and defense at 3B, he's already passed Stanton. 

[CheeryO]

16 minutes ago, ArtVanDelay said:

....what?

Manny is easily better than Stanton.

Stanton had a down year last year after his horrific injury in 2015.  It may be Stanton will never be the same player he was, but through age 25 you can't really say Manny was that much better than a player who had a plus .900 OPS for three seasons before he was 25.  I know Manny has a higher WAR per year due to his glove, but teams tend to hand out monster contracts for lots of HRs and a big OPS, not as much for dWAR.  

[backwardsk]

18 minutes ago, CheeryO said:

There is really no reason to believe Manny Machado is a better player than Corey Seager.  The opposite may well end up being true.  In any case if the Dodgers pursued Machado it would to play both Seager and Machado on the left side of the diamond.

Seager's a great ball player.  Machado has put up twice as much WAr than Seager through their age 22 seasons.

[CheeryO]

1 minute ago, backwardsk said:

Seager's a great ball player.  Machado has put up twice as much WAr than Seager through their age 22 seasons.

Manny came up when he was 19 and Seager when he was 21, so that's not relevant.

[Moondoggie]

33 minutes ago, CheeryO said:

I hate to say it, but Manny isn't in the same league as those players yet -- and all of those contracts already look like they're busts.  I think Manny is probably more valuable to the O's in a trade than he is on the field in a $250 - $300 million deal.

Nearly everybody would put Manny in about the top three. There are those who think he's the best right now. He's certainly better than Greinke or Price, both of whom are on the downside. He's better than Stanton, who has tons of power but can't seem to stay healthy. There is no better defensive player in baseball than Manny Machado. 

[ArtVanDelay]

7 minutes ago, CheeryO said:

Stanton had a down year last year after his horrific injury in 2015.  It may be Stanton will never be the same player he was, but through age 25 you can't really say Manny was that much better than a player who had a plus .900 OPS for three seasons before he was 25.  I know Manny has a higher WAR per year due to his glove, but teams tend to hand out monster contracts for lots of HRs and a big OPS, not as much for dWAR.  

Jason Heyward got 8/184.  

Fair point about Stanton but I think Manny's contract exceeds his easily.

[ArtVanDelay]

6 minutes ago, Moondoggie said:

Nearly everybody would put Manny in about the top three. There are those who think he's the best right now. He's certainly better than Greinke or Price, both of whom are on the downside. He's better than Stanton, who has tons of power but can't seem to stay healthy. There is no better defensive player in baseball than Manny Machado. 

Manny is up there but Kiermaier is the best defensive player in baseball.

Lindor and Crawford are arguably better than Manny but I'd probably still say Manny.  Simmons up there too.

[CheeryO]

Just now, Moondoggie said:

Nearly everybody would put Manny in about the top three. There are those who think he's the best right now. He's certainly better than Greinke or Price, both of whom are on the downside. He's better than Stanton, who has tons of power but can't seem to stay healthy. There is no better defensive player in baseball than Manny Machado. 

I don't see it.  Manny is a great player, but is he any better than Mookie Betts, Francisco Lindor, Jose Altuve, Kris Bryant, Paul Goldschmidt, and several others, not to mention Mike Trout?  My point is that Manny is one of the top 10 or 15 position players in the league, but he may not even be in the top 5, 6 or 7 depending on the year.  I don't see how the O's can justify a $300 million contract to a guy that may not be a top 5 position player last year, this year or next.  Unless the O's are sure MASN is a golden goose and the O's may have a team with a purse like the Yanks, Sox or Dodgers, I think the Orioles handing out a contract that big for a guy not named Mike Trout risks mortgaging the team's future for a long time.

[Moondoggie]

4 minutes ago, ArtVanDelay said:

Manny is up there but Kiermaier is the best defensive player in baseball.

Lindor and Crawford are arguably better than Manny but I'd probably still say Manny.  Simmons up there too.

Kiermaier is great, but I wouldn't say he's better than Manny. (Baseball Prospectus says Javy Baez.)

[CheeryO]

11 minutes ago, Moondoggie said:

Nearly everybody would put Manny in about the top three. There are those who think he's the best right now. He's certainly better than Greinke or Price, both of whom are on the downside. He's better than Stanton, who has tons of power but can't seem to stay healthy. There is no better defensive player in baseball than Manny Machado. 

Manny wasn't even top 10 in dWAR in 2014 or 2015.  He was #9 in dWAR in 2016.  Going by dWAR alone Kiermaier and Andrleton Simmons are pretty clearly the two best defensive players in the game.  I like your posts and enthusiasm, and I love Manny, but let's be reasonable here. 

[ArtVanDelay]

5 minutes ago, CheeryO said:

Manny wasn't even top 10 in dWAR in 2014 or 2015.  He was #9 in dWAR in 2016.  Going by dWAR alone Kiermaier and Andrleton Simmons are pretty clearly the two best defensive players in the game.  I like your posts and enthusiasm, and I love Manny, but let's be reasonable here. 

He only played 82 games in 2014, but yeah, he's not the best defensive player in baseball anymore.  He probably was at one point.

I'd say he's in the top 10, though.  Possibly top 5.

If Kiermaier and Simmons are in their own league, then Manny is in the tier below that with Lindor, Crawford, Baez, Posey, Pillar, etc.

[Moondoggie]

9 minutes ago, CheeryO said:

I don't see it.  Manny is a great player, but is he any better than Mookie Betts, Francisco Lindor, Jose Altuve, Kris Bryant, Paul Goldschmidt, and several others, not to mention Mike Trout?  My point is that Manny is one of the top 10 or 15 position players in the league, but he may not even be in the top 5, 6 or 7 depending on the year.  I don't see how the O's can justify a $300 million contract to a guy that may not be a top 5 position player last year, this year or next.  Unless the O's are sure MASN is a golden goose and the O's may have a team with a purse like the Yanks, Sox or Dodgers, I think the Orioles handing out a contract that big for a guy not named Mike Trout risks mortgaging the team's future for a long time.

Well, I was just poking around and ran across this:

MLB Top 100 player rankings: Machado ready to make the next jump to No. 1?

They have him ranked No. 2 behind only Trout, but believe he has the potential to pass Trout. And there has been a lot written about Manny being in the same stratosphere.

[Moondoggie]

8 minutes ago, CheeryO said:

Manny wasn't even top 10 in dWAR in 2014 or 2015.  He was #9 in dWAR in 2016.  Going by dWAR alone Kiermaier and Andrleton Simmons are pretty clearly the two best defensive players in the game.  I like your posts and enthusiasm, and I love Manny, but let's be reasonable here. 

WAR is a silly made-up statistic. Even more so when we're talking about quantifying defense. Even Bill James will tell you that defensive metrics are highly flawed. In fact, James said just last year that "...defensive metrics aren’t always the most persuasive tool in the toolbox.  Relatively speaking, a lot of them are still in their infancy, and met with a high degree of skepticism." He uses the eye test to make judgements. So do I.