Beane 2, MacPhail 0

[wickedwitch]

Did you read the book?

You mean the book that starts with a rant on how awful drafting Jeremy Bonderman was?

Beane is a great GM, probably in the top 5 in baseball. But he's by no means flawless, and doing something because he would do the same thing is bad idea.

From reading Moneyball, I wonder if it's Beane's arrogance that partially prevents him from taking the team even further. He seems to be certain that he's smarter than everyone else, and while it may be true, it also makes it less likely that he'll consider other people's opinions or change his mind on something.

That said, I would take him in a heart beat over the "GM's" we've had for the past 10 years, until MacPhail.

Incidentally, SI did a study last year, and it determined that playoff success was most correlated to the quality of the teams' top starters, top relievers and defense. So ideally a team needs to have a good enough offense to win in the regular season, but have it's strengths in those areas. Last year's Red Sox team was a good example of that.

[mweb]

I don't see how giving Kendall $35M over 3 seasons isn't just like an expensive free agent. The fact that he gave up something (albeit not really anything, but still) makes it a little worse, not better IMO. So yeah, I'd say it's an expensive free agent signing for all intents and purposes. Or, if you'd like, a high priced acquisition that's really no different than a high priced free agent.

The Chavez signing, criticism could be viewed as hindsight, but there is some validity to questioning why Beane would extend Chavez, out of all of the guys he's had pass through the ranks. I would say that he would have been better off with extending many other guys, other than Chavez. Is it hindsight? Maybe. But there's reason to keep a guy like Damon, Tejada, or Hudson before you would keep Chavez.

Loiaza was definitely bad and they did indeed dodge a bullet when the Dodgers picked him up off of waivers. But that doesn't excuse the bad move. It's kind of like the Bautista/Grimsley trade (God, it hurts to even think about it) where, even though Bautista hasn't panned out, it's still bad trade because it's Jason Grimsley.

The Piazza signing is bad because of all the reasons I listed (how not trusting an aging former catcher is bad, etc.) and for the fact that he is on a limited payroll.

Fun fact, in 2007, here's how a lot of their payroll was devoted:

Kotsay: $8M

Loiaza: $7.5M

Piazza: $8.5M

Kendall: $12.8M

Chavez: $9.5M

That totals out to $46.3M out of the $79M or 59% of the payroll devoted to:

Kotsay: 214/279/296

Loiaza: 14.7 IP (with a 4.89 ERA the year before in 154.7 IP)

Piazza: 275/313/414

Kendall: 226/261/281

Chavez: 240/306/446

I know he has a limited payroll and I know that nobody's said that they have a payroll like the Rays or Marlins but I don't care how high your payroll is, when you're devoting 58% of it to medicority to crappiness, that's over the line. Beane literally pissed his money away in 2007, IMO.

You said Kendall wasn't a free agent. But yeah, it was bad.

At the time, I would say there was at least as much reason to keep Chavez over those guys.

I didn't disagree with what you said about Loaiza.

I'm not saying Beane is the greatest GM ever or anything, I said he was overrated in general and on here, so you don't need to go on a crusade to show me his flaws.

[mweb]

Maybe this isn't the best source, but I just looked up what a GM's responsibilities are on wikipedia and found the following:

"In Major League Baseball, the General Manager or GM of a team typically controls player transactions and bears the primary responsibility on behalf of the ballclub during contract discussions with players.

The general manager is also normally the person who hires and fires the coaching staff, including the field manager who acts as the head coach. In baseball, the term manager used without qualification almost always refers to the field manager, not the general manager but they are managers.

Before the 1960s, and in some rare cases today, a person with the General Manager title in sports has also borne responsibility for the non-player operations of the ballclub, such as ballpark administration and broadcasting. Ed Barrow, George Weiss and Gabe Paul were three baseball GMs noted for their administrative skills in both player and non-player duties."

I'm certainly not saying wikipedia is the be all and end all, but I still think you might be wrong about this in most cases. Beane's responsibility is on the player personnel side. His job is to put a winning team out there with the resources he is given. It's not his job to market the team to the fans.

There's no question he's wrong about this.

[BaltimoreTerp]

You don't agree with what? You think the GM's not responsible for that? Who do you think is?

Of course the GM's responsible. He's the guy who the owner hires to run the club. In turn, the GM hires other people and determines club strategy. So, he decides who the manager is, just like he decides what the strategy is about the fanbase, and who to hire to see about that. Now, how much energy he puts into each thing is up to him, he's the boss. But he's still responsible. If the fanbase was not nurtured and attended to, that's the GM's fault, no matter what else he was spending his time on. If he didn't want to fool with it, then he should've found somebody who he could turn it completely over to who would do a better job. He hires whoever it is anyway, it's a matter of what direction he gives them vs. how much he delegates and/or ignores what they do. The GM doesn't fill out lineup cards everyday either, but that doesn't mean he's not responsible for how the team does. He is responsible for that, and the same thing is true about the fanbase. Now, if he had 3 layers of Presidents and Vice Presidents above him, it might be up to one of the VP's, but I don't think OAK is organized like a Modern MegaCorp, I think it's pretty much organized like a traditional ballclub, which means it's pretty much up to Billy to do whatever he wants.

Blaming Beane for the failure to build a fanbase is like blaming Mike Flanagan for the failure of the Orioles farm system over the past 25 years.

There was a lot of crap that happened a long time before his tenure that brought them to this point.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/attend.shtml

The only time Oakland was a real draw was 1989-1992, when they finished 2, 2, 3, 4 in attendance in the AL.

Most other years they were WAY down the list. During their 1970s run their best rank was 5 in 1972, and during Beane's 1999-2006 run their best finish was 6 in 2003.

Oakland has a history of tight-budget ownership starting with Finley and going through to the present day. They are the ones to blame.

[BaltimoreTerp]

You mean the book that starts with a rant on how awful drafting Jeremy Bonderman was?

Beane is a great GM, probably in the top 5 in baseball. But he's by no means flawless, and doing something because he would do the same thing is bad idea.

From reading Moneyball, I wonder if it's Beane's arrogance that partially prevents him from taking the team even further. He seems to be certain that he's smarter than everyone else, and while it may be true, it also makes it less likely that he'll consider other people's opinions or change his mind on something.

That said, I would take him in a heart beat over the "GM's" we've had for the past 10 years, until MacPhail.

Incidentally, SI did a study last year, and it determined that playoff success was most correlated to the quality of the teams' top starters, top relievers and defense. So ideally a team needs to have a good enough offense to win in the regular season, but have it's strengths in those areas. Last year's Red Sox team was a good example of that.

In other words, a team needs what Oakland has had plenty of during their run :laughlol:

[TommyD4207]

You said Kendall wasn't a free agent. But yeah, it was bad.

At the time, I would say there was at least as much reason to keep Chavez over those guys.

I didn't disagree with what you said about Loaiza.

I'm not saying Beane is the greatest GM ever or anything, I said he was overrated in general and on here, so you don't need to go on a crusade to show me his flaws.

To be clear, I was more speaking to the general board as opposed to just you. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.