Owners submit new economic plan to union : UPDATED

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, CallMeBrooksie said:

sure.. I just don't see a case for demonizing the owners and taking pity on the players union from what we know so far. I could be mistaken, but we've yet to hear of any willingness from the players to take less  money, have we?

I'm not picking sides, I'm just giving my opinion on what I'm seeing.

 

[DrungoHazewood]

38 minutes ago, CallMeBrooksie said:

sure.. I just don't see a case for demonizing the owners and taking pity on the players union from what we know so far. I could be mistaken, but we've yet to hear of any willingness from the players to take less  money, have we?

I think we should wait and see where the negotiations end up. 

Part of the plan is probably to selectively leak things that make the other side look bad to increase your leverage.  A problem is that the strategy of playing hardball and starting off with an unreasonable position depends on either you having some kind of big advantage over your opponent, or you have a lot of time.  There's not much time here, and both sides stand to lose a lot if the season isn't played.  For one, it'll be a public relations disaster.

[Can_of_corn]

If they don't play in 2020 I don't see how it doesn't negatively color the next round of CBA.

[atomic]

4 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I think you might be a nihilist.  Many times over the past few months or even years you've talked about how even minor sports like women's soccer are poised to pass baseball in popularity, how nobody really likes baseball anymore.  Of course that's an exaggeration, but an ugly labor dispute that cancels the season in the midst of a pandemic probably wouldn't do any good for the sport.  You don't want to watch the Orioles but the rest of us fans do.

Also, there is a salary floor right now, set at about $13.75M per team.  I'm guessing what you really mean is a much higher cap to force teams like the Orioles or the Tigers to spend a lot more on 32-year-old halfway decent free agents to bump the win totals up to 73 instead of 55.  Because everyone loved the 2007 Orioles.

I'd actually be okay with a floor if they did away with the draft and included all salaries and bonuses, including minor leaguers, in the calculations.  Doing away with the draft and having a tiered/capped bonus structure would have a bigger impact on competitiveness than forcing teams to spend $100M MLB payroll every year.  The NFL has a cap and a floor and they've had teams go 0-16 and 16-0.

Yeah but the Ravens are competitive most years. And how do the Jets and the Giants do?  Do you think the Orioles are ever going to be competitive year in and year out with the Yankees and Red Sox?

And the Capitals have been competitive for over a decade.  

Yet the Orioles are totally devoid of major league talent.   I don't want to watch this season anyway.  Why would I want to see a bunch of waiver guys who belong in AAA play against major league teams?

[atomic]

40 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

If they don't play in 2020 I don't see how it doesn't negatively color the next round of CBA.

It could cause the owners to pay them less in 2021.  They can say the pandemic affected their revenues which it did.  

[atomic]

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

People like simple, straightforward solutions to complicated problems.  A cap and floor could potentially be implemented in ways that increase competitive balance.  But I think other things could do that in a less ham-fisted manner.

And there are plenty of counter-examples.  The Browns and Patriots are both under the same cap and floor.  NCAA sports are all capped at the value of a scholarship and some teams go winless for years, and teams like Alabama and Clemson rarely lose.  Angelos essentially had a self-imposed salary floor for the Orioles around league-average payroll for most of the 2000s and they were awful.

Football and men's basketball NCAA sports have teams paying the players.  Different alumni allows different amounts of pay.  

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

1 hour ago, Redskins Rick said:

And some also believe the players are doing the same, and not wanting to take any pay cut is pretty self-centered.

I want to quickly point out, I think there is plenty of blame on both sides.

It seems like both sides are determined to make this a PR disaster for baseball, and to damage interest long term and to continue let the demographics of MLB fans to skew older. The average age of baseball fan (tv audience) in 2017 was reported to be 57 years old and this current drama isn't going to engage any younger fans. 

If revenues are going to be X instead of Y now, it shouldn't be difficult to come to an agreement on what MLB salaries should be in 2020. 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-sports-with-the-oldest-and-youngest-tv-audiences-2017-06-30

[DrungoHazewood]

21 minutes ago, atomic said:

Yeah but the Ravens are competitive most years. And how do the Jets and the Giants do?  Do you think the Orioles are ever going to be competitive year in and year out with the Yankees and Red Sox?

And the Capitals have been competitive for over a decade.  

Yet the Orioles are totally devoid of major league talent.   I don't want to watch this season anyway.  Why would I want to see a bunch of waiver guys who belong in AAA play against major league teams?

The Rays are the most resource-constrained franchise in MLB and they've been in the playoffs five times in the last 12 years.  The Browns haven't made the playoffs since 2002.

I want to watch the Orioles because I like baseball and I'm interested in their future.  But that's not the only way to be a fan.  When the times get good most of the people in the stands are bandwagoners who don't like the team or the sport enough to stick around during the lean years.  There's no real shame in that.

[DrungoHazewood]

20 minutes ago, atomic said:

Football and men's basketball NCAA sports have teams paying the players.  Different alumni allows different amounts of pay.  

So you're saying that NCAA teams routinely cheat the system, but a MLB cap and floor would be impervious to such deviousness?

[atomic]

6 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

So you're saying that NCAA teams routinely cheat the system, but a MLB cap and floor would be impervious to such deviousness?

Yes of course.  NCAA teams have an incentive to cheat. And the players all have big incentive to go to programs that pay the most.  If they didn't cheat they wouldn't get any salary.  If they cheat they get paid.  Coaches get millions of dollars for cheating. If they don't cheat they get fired. 

[Redskins Rick]

20 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

So you're saying that NCAA teams routinely cheat the system, but a MLB cap and floor would be impervious to such deviousness?

I dont believe any NCAA athlete is allowed to receive money. Of course, we all know it happens under the table.

They had to ban any NCAA athlete from working while in college, because of all the improper shenanigans going on behind the scenes. Which really hurt the division 2 and 3 players, who had no shot at a pro career to begin with.

 

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

People like simple, straightforward solutions to complicated problems.  A cap and floor could potentially be implemented in ways that increase competitive balance.  But I think other things could do that in a less ham-fisted manner.

And there are plenty of counter-examples.  The Browns and Patriots are both under the same cap and floor.  NCAA sports are all capped at the value of a scholarship and some teams go winless for years, and teams like Alabama and Clemson rarely lose.  Angelos essentially had a self-imposed salary floor for the Orioles around league-average payroll for most of the 2000s and they were awful.

I gotta disagree with the NCAA analogy as its apples to oranges to a salary cap in my opinion. The reason there are haves and have not in college, and it's is due to facilities, stadiums, fans, tradition, system/coaching staffs and TV exposure. vs an even playing field because they all have the same scholarships. Not to mention the boosters that find ways to "pay" highly talented players to attend their school.

[Moose Milligan]

Fully prepared for an announcement that there will be no baseball in 2020.  

[atomic]

51 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Fully prepared for an announcement that there will be no baseball in 2020.  

I feel like when they see NHL and NBA in training camps they will change their tunes.  Just like municipalities.  It doesn't do you much good for Baltimore City to shutdown as people will just go to the counties.  If Ocean City doesn't open up people will just go to Myrtle Beach and Florida.  You either match your competitors or you hurt yourself.

 If baseball shuts down it will lose market share to NBA and NHL as baseball fans look for alternatives.  There are going to be plenty of other options for sports fans this summer. You can lose the money or you can come to an agreement to protect your livelihoods.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

I gotta disagree with the NCAA analogy as its apples to oranges to a salary cap in my opinion. The reason there are haves and have not in college, and it's is due to facilities, stadiums, fans, tradition, system/coaching staffs and TV exposure. vs an even playing field because they all have the same scholarships. Not to mention the boosters that find ways to "pay" highly talented players to attend their school.

Good points, but players will sign with the Yanks over the Orioles or the Rays even with a cap because of facilities, fans, tradition, coaching, and being on ESPN four times a week.  The Yanks will still have $650M in revenues, and they won't just take everything over the cap as profits, they will find ways to make that revenue advantageous.  Just like Alabama or Clemson, Duke or Kansas.  Limiting player salaries are just one aspect of competitive balance.