Jose Iglesias traded to Angels.

[Tony-OH]

8 minutes ago, owknows said:

I would find this a more palatable assertion if they had not already coughed up the money to sign Iglesias.

They signed him... then got an offer and traded him.

I can understand these circumstances being evidence for stalling the turnaround for another year, and I'm not thrilled about that...

But I don't understand how this is evidence of budget constraint, given that they signed him already.

 

But was he allowed to sign him because he assured them he could be traded for some value? Getting a 5th round pitch and a DSL guy is better than not picking up a guy's option and losing him for nothing. Iglesias had value at his price tag so there was little doubt Elias could get something for him.

 

[jerios55]

16 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

This. The only way to spin this in a good way is if Elias really thinks that much of the 5th round pick guy and the 5-foot-11 DSL pitcher. For me, this was just another penny pinching move that hurts the team in 2021, particularly their up the middle defense which is important while developing young pitchers. 

I think it's mostly this, with future upside.  They do seem to like what the Angels were doing during the 2018 draft.  The quote saying they aren't ready this year shows that money is definitely a piece.

I feel like they have a pool of  ~1 win players and they are willing to keep the ones that are ~1-2 million (Valiaka, Severino, Armstrong) and not the 2 mill + (Alberto, Nunez, Iglesias, throw in Villar of last year as well).  They are assuming they can get close to the value ~1 win for less (and I still think that could include Nunez or Alberto if they come down to the 1-2 mill range).  If they get Alberto and Nunez back at 2mill or so, then the penny pinching may not look quite as bad.

Now even if Alberto and Nunez come back that has no impact to middle infield defense argument.  I totally get it's not exciting and at times downright frustrating.  Certainly not going to argue that.

[LookinUp]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

You have spending for the sake of spending and you have trading Iglesias to save a few million when they don't appear to have a replacement.  I don't think anyone would consider retaining Iglesias spending to spend.

Put me in the camp of:

1. I don't care what Elias' motivation was, because it's Iglesias.

2. Covid aside, I have zero faith that Iglesias will play a massively valuable 150 games for anyone this year, which means that I'm not buying the argument that this will significantly hurt the development of our pitching.

3. I hate the Elias quote because of the optics, but agree that we're still in a position where I'm fine trading guys who aren't part of our future for guys who might be part of a winning future.

4. I'm fine with adding another pitcher that we liked, even if the odds for this particular guy aren't high. He goes into our growing inventory from which a couple of guys with lowish odds, like Means or Baumann were a couple of years ago, will likely emerge.

 

The 2020 O's played well for 40 games and people got all excited. That's cool, but we are still a rebuild that needs to happen, and even after the rebuild is complete we're likely to need to be the type of team that makes deals like this to keep replenishing the farm wherever possible. 

The worst thing Elias could do is over rate a guy like Jose Iglesias. 

 

 

 

 

[Sports Guy]

51 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm not too much caught up in anything. 

How many right handed LF/1B/DH types can you remember being worth paying arb 4 prices for?  Do any of them have the questions concerning plate discipline that Mountcastle has?

You are too wrapped up in squeezing the tiniest little bit of advantage that you don't realize how unlikely it is to actually be an advantage.

 

Yes, I’m worried about gaining an extra year of a good player at a time where we aren’t winning games and bringing him up a few weeks earlier means nothing.

Its smart business.  What you are asking for isn’t smart.

And if he’s not that good and you don’t think that much of him because he was a borderline top 100 guy, what do you care when he is brought up?

[CarrRun49]

50 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

It's possible that ownership tightened the purse strings even more after last year.

Horse, meet bat

[Sports Guy]

29 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

Put me in the camp of:

1. I don't care what Elias' motivation was, because it's Iglesias.

2. Covid aside, I have zero faith that Iglesias will play a massively valuable 150 games for anyone this year, which means that I'm not buying the argument that this will significantly hurt the development of our pitching.

3. I hate the Elias quote because of the optics, but agree that we're still in a position where I'm fine trading guys who aren't part of our future for guys who might be part of a winning future.

4. I'm fine with adding another pitcher that we liked, even if the odds for this particular guy aren't high. He goes into our growing inventory from which a couple of guys with lowish odds, like Means or Baumann were a couple of years ago, will likely emerge.

 

The 2020 O's played well for 40 games and people got all excited. That's cool, but we are still a rebuild that needs to happen, and even after the rebuild is complete we're likely to need to be the type of team that makes deals like this to keep replenishing the farm wherever possible. 

The worst thing Elias could do is over rate a guy like Jose Iglesias. 

 

 

 

 

Excellent post all around

[Can_of_corn]

29 minutes ago, CarrRun49 said:

Horse, meet bat

Are you suggesting that this past year hasn't had an impact on team's spending?

[Can_of_corn]

47 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yes, I’m worried about gaining an extra year of a good player at a time where we aren’t winning games and bringing him up a few weeks earlier means nothing.

Its smart business.  What you are asking for isn’t smart.

And if he’s not that good and you don’t think that much of him because he was a borderline top 100 guy, what do you care when he is brought up?

At a certain point trying to maximize every possible advantage no matter how slight becomes an unnecessary drain on resources.  You end up in a situation in which you mess with people simply because the system allows it.

I asked you for a list of comps that you would pay arb 4 prices for and I see you failed to come up with any.  Unless he's Goldschmidt or Votto he won't be worth arb 4 prices.

As for me not caring?  There is a huge gulf between me wanting to see him play in 2020 and wanting the team to pay him arb 4 in 2026.  Like the difference of your opinion of yourself and others opinion of you big.

[Can_of_corn]

53 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

The worst thing Elias could do is over rate a guy like Jose Iglesias. 

 

 

 

 

How is paying him 3.5M for one season when the O's don't have anyone on hand to man the position overrating him?  It is not as if he gave him a 3 year 40 million extension.

[LookinUp]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

How is paying him 3.5M for one season when the O's don't have anyone on hand to man the position overrating him?  It is not as if he gave him a 3 year 40 million extension.

Paying him 3.5m for a season isn't necessarily over rating him. Over rating him is not taking a useful deal in early December when you know that someone else comparable will likely be available for around 3.5m, or less. The SS thread makes that clear, IMO.

Don't get me wrong, part of me wonders if Iglesias didn't find the same magic potion that other 30 something players magically discovered in the last few decades. If so, we may have just given up a 5 WAR guy for a 5th round pick. That would suck, but I think it's just as likely that he cannot play 81 games next year if that's the case.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

Paying him 3.5m for a season isn't necessarily over rating him. Over rating him is not taking a useful deal in early December when you know that someone else comparable will likely be available for around 3.5m, or less. The SS thread makes that clear, IMO.

Don't get me wrong, part of me wonders if Iglesias didn't find the same magic potion that other 30 something players magically discovered in the last few decades. If so, we may have just given up a 5 WAR guy for a 5th round pick. That would suck, but I think it's just as likely that he cannot play 81 games next year if that's the case.

I don't think we end up with someone comparable, and I'm not expecting him to repeat 2020 with the bat.

[Just Regular]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm not too much caught up in anything. 

How many right handed LF/1B/DH types can you remember being worth paying arb 4 prices for?  Do any of them have the questions concerning plate discipline that Mountcastle has?

You are too wrapped up in squeezing the tiniest little bit of advantage that you don't realize how unlikely it is to actually be an advantage.

 

It's certainly easy to picture Mountcastle ending up in the Eddie Rosario basket of yesterday when it comes that time.

Even in instances of superior players like Bryant/Adley, we now have some view of the value of the Cubs play to control Bryant's 2021.  I'm not sure Bryant at 1/20 would pass waivers ala Rosario and Renato on lower tiers, but I doubt they end up with much more than what we just got for Iglesias.   The Cubs also got grievances and a disgruntled franchise player these last few years.   Let's let Theo decompress another couple months, have a few drinks and see if we can get him talking on this kind of stuff.

[LookinUp]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think we end up with someone comparable, and I'm not expecting him to repeat 2020 with the bat.

A few people in this thread are agreeing with me, which is cool, but here's something I doubt pretty much anyone will agree with me about...

I think Richie Martin, over a full season, has a good chance to be comparable. 

I really just don't think much of Iglesias as a player. I worry about the injuries. I worry that he's an aging SS, so he'll lose his range. I assume his bat will be sub par again. I know he could hold off father time for another year or two and actually be what people here hope he'll be, but I wouldn't put my own money on it.

If I were Elias, I'm taking the deal and replacing him in what will almost certainly be a week FA market because of Covid. I think he essentially got two young guys for free yesterday.

[Sports Guy]

14 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

At a certain point trying to maximize every possible advantage no matter how slight becomes an unnecessary drain on resources.  You end up in a situation in which you mess with people simply because the system allows it.

I asked you for a list of comps that you would pay arb 4 prices for and I see you failed to come up with any.  Unless he's Goldschmidt or Votto he won't be worth arb 4 prices.

As for me not caring?  There is a huge gulf between me wanting to see him play in 2020 and wanting the team to pay him arb 4 in 2026.  Like the difference of your opinion of yourself and others opinion of you big.

1). I don’t need to come up with a list because it’s irrelevant.  If you want to know that info, have at it.

2) we haven’t reached that “certain point”.  Mountcastle being the minors wasn’t a drain on anything.  It hurt nothing that mattered/matters.  
 

3)I suppose that’s supposed to be a shot at me but I find that post hilarious coming from you.  
 

You just aren’t being smart on how to build the team properly.  Wasting service on Mountcastle would have been stupid.  You can’t defend it with any ounce of intelligent thought.  It’s just you having an axe to grind for some reason. 

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

A few people in this thread are agreeing with me, which is cool, but here's something I doubt pretty much anyone will agree with me about...

I think Richie Martin, over a full season, has a good chance to be comparable. 

I really just don't think much of Iglesias as a player. I worry about the injuries. I worry that he's an aging SS, so he'll lose his range. I assume his bat will be sub par again. I know he could hold off father time for another year or two and actually be what people here hope he'll be, but I wouldn't put my own money on it.

If I were Elias, I'm taking the deal and replacing him in what will almost certainly be a week FA market because of Covid. I think he essentially got two young guys for free yesterday.

Martin isn’t good...but I don’t think Iglesias is that good either so sure, I could see Martin being worth something close to Iglesias in a normal year for him.