Good Golly this team is painful to watch right now...

[Pickles]

12 minutes ago, Robh21223 said:

I would think you would bring in a few stud veterans to mix with a good young nucleus. I don't think you can go all young and win. You need a few veterans.

They don't have to be FAs.

[Robh21223]

And please don't say.... "you have Chris Davis".

[Robh21223]

1 minute ago, Pickles said:

They don't have to be FAs.

Exactly. Trades are always an option.

[spiritof66]

1 hour ago, NelsonCruuuuuz said:

So Elias can take the 10th/15th best player? Thrilling.

 

4 minutes ago, Pickles said:

It has been thrown around here ad infinitum here, but it's worth noting that the O's aren't bad in 2021 because of decisions made in 2021.  They are bad because of decisions in 2017.  Unless Elias was in possession of a time machine when he got here, this was always going to be a long, painful process.

I have to disagree with this, at least a little. It's true that Elias took over a woeful team and a very bad situation. But if the Orioles had spent a little more money on acquiring talent, they would not be as bad as they are. If the team were managed with more emphasis on trying to win games, they probably would win a few more. If they had a manager and coaching staff who were effectively teaching these guys the right way to play, the team wouldn't be as painful to watch. 

A word on payroll. As listed by Spotrac, the teams with the lowest player payrolls are Miami ($59 mm), Baltimore ($57 mm), Pittsburgh ($57 mm) and Cleveland ($50 million). Only the Pirates and Orioles are paying substantial amounts to completely useless players (not  counting those who might be contributing except that they are injured). The Pirates are paying the suspended Felipe Vasquez $7.75 million. The Orioles are paying Chris Davis $21 million and Alex Cobb $7 million. If you adjust for those useless salaries, the Orioles' payroll is $29 million, just under 60 percent of the next two lowest player payrolls. To me, as a fan, it's indefensible for the Orioles to spend so much less than every major league team on potentially productive talent. If that's what the team's decision-makers think they can afford, they should get the hell out of MLB -- as I think they will.

Bottom line: I would like to have seen this team acquire a little more talent, especially infield defenders who play defense the right way. I would like to see more effort to milk some more wins out of the meager talent that's there -- like having hitters regularly go up to the plate with a plan about what they'll do there --  and I would like to see some effort to improve the hustle, determination and will to win. Maybe that's happening, and I just don't see it. What I do see is a team that often plays dumb baseball and looks disappointed, but not overly concerned, about getting outplayed and outclassed game after game (when John Means isn't pitching).

[Sports Guy]

54 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Well, explain.

Without question, they could have fielded a more competitive team while still being focused on the long term.

Its complete bs to act like they still have to field a crap team.  
 

Rebuilding/tanking was needed for a season or 2...going beyond that is just an excuse for ownership to “steal money”.

[Pickles]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Without question, they could have fielded a more competitive team while still being focused on the long term.

Its complete bs to act like they still have to field a crap team.  
 

Rebuilding/tanking was needed for a season or 2...going beyond that is just an excuse for ownership to “steal money”.

Be specific. 

That's all I hear.  They could be better if they tried a little harder.

What moves, that are not just pure hindsight, could have been made in the last 14 months, which would improve this team in the here and now, and not cost them in the long term?

I think Rutschman is a perfect example.  Yes, if we called him up now it would improve this team.  It would cost us a year of his prime theoretically.  I'm perfectly fine with that decision.

I think a lot of people have a misguided and linear view of a rebuild.  And I think a lot of people got overly encouraged by a SSS improvement last year.

[Pickles]

16 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

 

I have to disagree with this, at least a little. It's true that Elias took over a woeful team and a very bad situation. But if the Orioles had spent a little more money on acquiring talent, they would not be as bad as they are. If the team were managed with more emphasis on trying to win games, they probably would win a few more. If they had a manager and coaching staff who were effectively teaching these guys the right way to play, the team wouldn't be as painful to watch. 

A word on payroll. As listed by Spotrac, the teams with the lowest player payrolls are Miami ($59 mm), Baltimore ($57 mm), Pittsburgh ($57 mm) and Cleveland ($50 million). Only the Pirates and Orioles are paying substantial amounts to completely useless players (not  counting those who might be contributing except that they are injured). The Pirates are paying the suspended Felipe Vasquez $7.75 million. The Orioles are paying Chris Davis $21 million and Alex Cobb $7 million. If you adjust for those useless salaries, the Orioles' payroll is $29 million, just under 60 percent of the next two lowest player payrolls. To me, as a fan, it's indefensible for the Orioles to spend so much less than every major league team on potentially productive talent. If that's what the team's decision-makers think they can afford, they should get the hell out of MLB -- as I think they will.

Bottom line: I would like to have seen this team acquire a little more talent, especially infield defenders who play defense the right way. I would like to see more effort to milk some more wins out of the meager talent that's there -- like having hitters regularly go up to the plate with a plan about what they'll do there --  and I would like to see some effort to improve the hustle, determination and will to win. Maybe that's happening, and I just don't see it. What I do see is a team that often plays dumb baseball and looks disappointed, but not overly concerned, about getting outplayed and outclassed game after game (when John Means isn't pitching).

My response to you is similar to my response to SportsGuy:

What specific moves should have been made?

I think this team plays pretty hard, with a few notable exceptions.

Our infield is undoubtedly a weakness- organizationally.  How could they have improved it without trading talent, or spending money?  Neither of which this team is in a position to do.

These guys aren't turning it on and off depending on if Means is pitching or not.  It looks like that because the question is one of ability not effort.

Rest assured, this is a bad team.  But there will be a few weeks at some point later this season when we'll be on here saying, "These guys don't look too bad."

[LocoChris]

They're very bad right now. It won't be this bad forever, but it's really rough going right now.

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Be specific. 

That's all I hear.  They could be better if they tried a little harder.

What moves, that are not just pure hindsight, could have been made in the last 14 months, which would improve this team in the here and now, and not cost them in the long term?

I think Rutschman is a perfect example.  Yes, if we called him up now it would improve this team.  It would cost us a year of his prime theoretically.  I'm perfectly fine with that decision.

I think a lot of people have a misguided and linear view of a rebuild.  And I think a lot of people got overly encouraged by a SSS improvement last year.

I don’t think promoting Adley is anything remotely close to what I’m talking about.

I’m talking about bringing in outside talent.  I’m talking about using your money to bring in talent.  I’m talking about using some of our depth to bring in talent.

I mentioned Wily Adames in the offseason.  He was just traded for a few relievers. He was an obvious trade target.  
 

There are guys like that out there.  Use your advantages and get better in areas that you need a lot of help.  
 

You don’t need to sacrifice the long term view of the team to accomplish this.  
 

I’ll say the same thing I said months ago...we should not be watching AAAA type guys at this point.  Every player out there should be MLB quality talent.

On top of that, this team needs to stop jerking these young kids around.  They can’t get any rhythm.  They can’t get any momentum.  It’s just poor management of assets that you claim you are going to rely on long term.

Elias has proven that he can build a MiL system.  He has not proven that he can translate that for the ML team.

I like Hyde a lot but Tony is right, players aren’t getting better with this coaching staff.  

[Pickles]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

I don’t think promoting Adley is anything remotely close to what I’m talking about.

I’m talking about bringing in outside talent.  I’m talking about using your money to bring in talent.  I’m talking about using some of our depth to bring in talent.

I mentioned Wily Adames in the offseason.  He was just traded for a few relievers. He was an obvious trade target.  
 

There are guys like that out there.  Use your advantages and get better in areas that you need a lot of help.  
 

You don’t need to sacrifice the long term view of the team to accomplish this.  
 

I’ll say the same thing I said months ago...we should not be watching AAAA type guys at this point.  Every player out there should be MLB quality talent.

On top of that, this team needs to stop jerking these young kids around.  They can’t get any rhythm.  They can’t get any momentum.  It’s just poor management of assets that you claim you are going to rely on long term.

Elias has proven that he can build a MiL system.  He has not proven that he can translate that for the ML team.

I like Hyde a lot but Tony is right, players aren’t getting better with this coaching staff.  

They're not going to spend money now. That's perfectly reasonable.  And I'm sure at some point in 2006, when they signed a bunch of generic relievers to improve a 64 win team, you wrote a 3,000 word post- rightfully- nailing them about it. (I'm not saying that actually happened.  But I bet it did.)

What needle does Wily Adames move for this team?  Is he going to make them "good?"  No, they're still a bad team, and thus, will look like crap for weeks on end.

I don't see them jerking young kids around.  In fact, I see a lot of people criticizing them for being slow in their promotion of prospects.

Guys aren't getting better?

Mullins and Means would like a word with you.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Pickles said:

They're not going to spend money now. That's perfectly reasonable.  And I'm sure at some point in 2006, when they signed a bunch of generic relievers to improve a 64 win team, you wrote a 3,000 word post- rightfully- nailing them about it. (I'm not saying that actually happened.  But I bet it did.)

What needle does Wily Adames move for this team?  Is he going to make them "good?"  No, they're still a bad team, and thus, will look like crap for weeks on end.

I don't see them jerking young kids around.  In fact, I see a lot of people criticizing them for being slow in their promotion of prospects.

Guys aren't getting better?

Mullins and Means would like a word with you.

Lol..ok, if you don’t actually want to look at you things logically and make excuses for them, in just going to bow out and say we can agree to disagree.

[GuidoSarducci]

43 minutes ago, Pickles said:

They don't have to be FAs.

A team trading a veteran FA who can contribute is going to want  prospects/young talent.  It makes no sense for a rebuilding team to make a trade like that.  Instead we would be the ones unloading veteran talent for prospects.   We may very well do that this offseason with Mancini. 

[Pickles]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

Lol..ok, if you don’t actually want to look at you things logically and make excuses for them, in just going to bow out and say we can agree to disagree.

What logic am I missing?

Spending money in a rebuilding year to improve your baseline ability from 63 wins to 66 wins, is not logical.  You know that- or at least you did in 2006.

Likewise, trading talent in a rebuilding year ti improve your baseline ability from 63 wins to 66 wins, is not logical.  You know that- or at least you did in 2006.

How much "ink" was wasted on this website alone during that 14 year Roman wilderness of losing about the futility of spending money and talent on middling upgrades to the short term improvement of a bad team?

 

[Pickles]

4 minutes ago, GuidoSarducci said:

A team trading a veteran FA who can contribute is going to want  prospects/young talent.  It makes no sense for a rebuilding team to make a trade like that.  Instead we would be the ones unloading veteran talent for prospects.   We may very well do that this offseason with Mancini. 

I agree.  I'm not talking about now.

In 2-3 years, when the time comes, they won't be rebuilding anymore.

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Pickles said:

What logic am I missing?

Spending money in a rebuilding year to improve your baseline ability from 63 wins to 66 wins, is not logical.  You know that- or at least you did in 2006.

Likewise, trading talent in a rebuilding year ti improve your baseline ability from 63 wins to 66 wins, is not logical.  You know that- or at least you did in 2006.

How much "ink" was wasted on this website alone during that 14 year Roman wilderness of losing about the futility of spending money and talent on middling upgrades to the short term improvement of a bad team?

 

Cool