Jump to content

Cease vs everyone else


Sports Guy

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

What makes you say Cowser lacks power?   That’s not correct.  Just look up his AA and AAA numbers.  It’s easy.

Yeah I'm aware of his minor league power numbers. I'm not sure I see them translating to the big leagues as readily as Kjerstad, who has the real deal 30-40 bomb power. 

I see Cowser as having a kind of Hays-like bat in the big leagues, but with a lot more walks. That's just my opinion though. 

Edited by interloper
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, interloper said:

Yeah I'm aware of his minor league power numbers. I'm not sure I see them translating to the big leagues as readily as Kjerstad, who has the real deal 30-40 bomb power. 

I see Cowser as having a kind of Hays-like bat in the big leagues, but with a lot more walks. That's just my opinion though. 

No problem but here are Cowsers combined AA and AAA numbers in 163 games.  144 runs scored, 35 doubles, 1 triple, 32 home runs, 106 RBI.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, RZNJ said:

No problem but here are Cowsers combined AA and AAA numbers in 163 games.  144 runs scored, 35 doubles, 1 triple, 32 home runs, 106 RBI.   

He's just one of those guys that's gonna have to prove it to me. I see Kjerstad and I'm like, yes, that's a dude, I see it. I don't have that with Cowser for whatever reason. But I do understand Elias being hesitant to trade him. 

That said, good luck getting these teams off your top tier of position player prospects (Holliday, Mayo, Kjerstad, Basallo, Cowser, Bradfield) and into the next tier (Ortiz, Westburg, Norby, Beavers, Fabian, etc).

This is what I've been saying for a long time. Teams are just fixated on that top 5.  I don't think teams are really buying Ortiz and Westburg as difference makers - they want guys with bigger and louder upside. I think those teams are very stupid, but it is what it is. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, interloper said:

He's just one of those guys that's gonna have to prove it to me. I see Kjerstad and I'm like, yes, that's a dude, I see it. I don't have that with Cowser for whatever reason. But I do understand Elias being hesitant to trade him. 

That said, good luck getting these teams off your top tier of position player prospects (Holliday, Mayo, Kjerstad, Basallo, Cowser, Bradfield) and into the next tier (Ortiz, Westburg, Norby, Beavers, Fabian, etc).

This is what I've been saying for a long time. Teams are just fixated on that top 5.  I don't think teams are really buying Ortiz and Westburg as difference makers - they want guys with bigger and louder upside. I think those teams are very stupid, but it is what it is. 

Interesting that you think Westburg is in that category. I think he's likely in the 2024 contributor category and that Elias will be reluctant to include him in these deals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Point is, you don’t have a surplus of outfielders unless you have at least 4 solid guys for 3 spots.  Right now we have two guys coming up who can replace the three we are losing in the next two years.   That’s not really a surplus.  Doesn’t mean you don’t trade one anyway, but it’s not as easy as trading an infielder where we clearly have a surplus.  

Santander, Hays, Mullins, Cowser, Kjerstad,… is McKenna solid? Is Hicks returning? Stowers? Are the Orioles counting on O’Hearn in the OF. It sounds like they are. Also Elias through the media just said Heston in RF right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, ThisIsBirdland said:

Interesting that you think Westburg is in that category. I think he's likely in the 2024 contributor category and that Elias will be reluctant to include him in these deals.

I don't disagree that he's going to be a solid ML player, but he doesn't have the wow factor of those other guys, IMO, that other teams are looking for in trades. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, interloper said:

I don't disagree that he's going to be a solid ML player, but he doesn't have the wow factor of those other guys, IMO, that other teams are looking for in trades. 

Besides Holliday, Mayo, and Basallo, I think Westburg has as much wow factor as Kjerstad and Cowser.   The dude hit 18 homers in half a season at Norfolk, held his own in the majors and plays plus defense at 2B and 3B and he’s one of the fastest players on the team.

Westburg in 158 AAA games.

121 runs, 40 doubles, 5 triples, 36 home runs, 128 RBI

I say, wow!

 

Edited by RZNJ
  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Besides Holliday, Mayo, and Basallo, I think Westburg has as much wow factor as Kjerstad and Cowser.   The dude hit 18 homers in half a season at Norfolk, held his own in the majors and plays plus defense at 2B and 3B and he’s one of the fastest players on the team.

I don't necessarily disagree about Westburg being equitable to Cowser, but I will hard disagree about Westburg being equitable to Kjerstad. I don't see Westburg's power translating as well as we'd like. Plenty of guys hit AAA home runs, but they aren't facing 97 with run and devastating sliders on a regular basis. To me, he's in the Cowser category that sort of exists between the top guys and the next tier. But that's not how I think other teams see it. Perhaps I'm just feeling a little sour about the current trade climate. But if Elias is drawing the line at Cowser, we may have a problem acquiring a frontline starter. 

Edited by interloper
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Besides Holliday, Mayo, and Basallo, I think Westburg has as much wow factor as Kjerstad and Cowser.   The dude hit 18 homers in half a season at Norfolk, held his own in the majors and plays plus defense at 2B and 3B and he’s one of the fastest players on the team.

And plays in the dirt (2B, 3b, & SS in a pinch).  He’s fastest guy on team not named Mateo.  By all accounts is one of the most disciplined and hardest workers in the org (comments coming from his colleagues).  The underrating of Westburg on this board is crazy.  The dude put up 1.2 WAR in 68 games in his rookie season.  Thats a 3 WAR player who is just getting his feet wet.  Kjerstad is a nice player but pretty one dimensional. 

Edited by emmett16
  • Upvote 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, emmett16 said:

And plays in the dirt (2B, 3b, & SS in a pinch).  He’s fastest guy on team not named Mateo.  By all accounts is one of the most disciplined and hardest workers in the org (comments coming from his colleagues).  The underrating of Westburg on this board is crazy.  The dude put up 1.2 WAR in 68 games in his rookie season.  Thats a 3 WAR player who is just getting his feet wet.  

To be clear, I'm not really saying I don't like him or rate him very highly. I do. My main point is I think other teams are underrating him. They want the top guys. They're not going to get them. And we may not get a pitcher. That's how things look as of 12/7/23. 

Edited by interloper
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, interloper said:

To be clear, I'm not really saying I don't like him or rate him very highly. I do. My main point is I think other teams are underrating him. They want the top guys. They're not going to get them. And we may not get a pitcher. That's how things look as of 12/7/23. 

Of course they want the top guys.  They also have the data to see the Westburg is 100% a difference maker.  He put up 1/2 the WAR Cease did in 1/3 of a season…..his first season.  Seems to me Cease for Westburg straight up shouldn’t  be too far off. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, emmett16 said:

Of course they want the top guys.  They also have the data to see the Westburg is 100% a difference maker.  He put up 1/2 the WAR Cease did in 1/3 of a season…..his first season.  Seems to me Cease for Westburg straight up shouldn’t  be too far off. 

I totally agree. Getz is a ding dong. 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, interloper said:

I don't necessarily disagree about Westburg being equitable to Cowser, but I will hard disagree about Westburg being equitable to Kjerstad. I don't see Westburg's power translating as well as we'd like. Plenty of guys hit AAA home runs, but they aren't facing 97 with run and devastating sliders on a regular basis. To me, he's in the Cowser category that sort of exists between the top guys and the next tier. But that's not how I think other teams see it. Perhaps I'm just feeling a little sour about the current trade climate. But if Elias is drawing the line at Cowser, we may have a problem acquiring a frontline starter. 

 Cowser clearly has the higher upside as an all around player compared to Kjerstad.

 

Edited by Sports Guy
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

 Cowser clearly has the higher upside as an all around player compared to Kjerstad.

 

I just disagree with this completely, but I understand that I'm probably in the minority with that view. 

Kjerstad to me is about as can't-miss of a ML 30-40 HR bat as you can get. And he's going to hit for a solid average and get on base, I think. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, ThisIsBirdland said:

Interesting that you think Westburg is in that category. I think he's likely in the 2024 contributor category and that Elias will be reluctant to include him in these deals.

Elias is good enough at not tipping his hand, its an interesting black box which of Westburg v. Ortiz (maybe even v. Norby) is his most valuable extra infielder over the next few years.

I don't rule out yet that Ortiz or Norby is the keeper, but as the oldest Westburg was being showcased as well as deployed.

If fingers crossed Samuel Basallo is someone on the super Bat ladder, its arguable the Orioles have already played their last tournament game without him in the lineup.

Holliday-Mayo-Basallo is the wave of the rising tide that drowns some Oriole or Orioles who have been big contributors to the last 2 year's winners.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Posts

    • Interesting article …. Pretty surprising stat with all the guys that we lost to injury       https://www.masnsports.com/blog/orioles-made-it-through-rough-t
    • The same thing was happening was MacDonald was the DC and when Wink was the DC, that makes me put most of the blame on Harbaugh 
    • dWAR is just the run value for defense added with the defensive adjustment.  Corner OF spots have a -7.5 run adjustment, while CF has a +2.5 adjustment over 150 games.    Since Cowser played both CF and the corners they pro-rate his time at each to calculate his defensive adjustment. 
    • Just to be clear, though, fWAR also includes a substantial adjustment for position, including a negative one for Cowser.  For a clearer example on that front, as the chart posted higher on this page indicates, Carlos Santana had a +14 OAA — which is the source data that fWAR’s defensive component is based on. That 14 outs above average equates to 11-12 (they use different values on this for some reason) runs better than the average 1B.  So does Santana have a 12.0 defensive value, per fWAR? He does not. That’s because they adjust his defensive value downward to reflect that he’s playing a less difficult/valuable position. In this case, that adjustment comes out to -11.0 runs, as you can see here:   So despite apparently having a bona fide Gold Glove season, Santana’s Fielding Runs value (FanGraphs’ equivalent to dWAR) is barely above average, at 1.1 runs.    Any good WAR calculation is going to adjust for position. Being a good 1B just isn’t worth as much as being an average SS or catcher. Just as being a good LF isn’t worth as much as being an average CF. Every outfielder can play LF — only the best outfielders can play CF.  Where the nuance/context shows up here is with Cowser’s unique situation. Playing LF in OPACY, with all that ground to cover, is not the same as playing LF at Fenway or Yankee Stadium. Treating Cowser’s “position” as equivalent to Tyler O’Neill’s, for example, is not fair. The degree of difficulty is much, much higher at OPACY’s LF, and so the adjustment seems out of whack for him. That’s the one place where I’d say the bWAR value is “unfair” to Cowser.
    • Wait a second here, the reason he's -0.1 in bb-ref dwar is because they're using drs to track his defensive run value.  He's worth 6.6 runs in defense according to fangraphs, which includes adjustments for position, which would give him a fangraphs defensive war of +0.7.
    • A little funny to have provided descriptions of the hits (“weak” single; “500 foot” HR). FIP doesn’t care about any of that either, so it’s kind of an odd thing to add in an effort to make ERA look bad.  Come in, strike out the first hitter, then give up three 108 MPH rocket doubles off the wall. FIP thinks you were absolutely outstanding, and it’s a shame your pathetic defense and/or sheer bad luck let you down. Next time you’ll (probably) get the outcomes you deserve. They’re both flawed. So is xFIP. So is SIERA. So is RA/9. So is WPA. So is xERA. None of them are perfect measures of how a pitcher’s actual performance was, because there’s way too much context and too many variables for any one metric to really encompass.  But when I’m thinking about awards, for me at least, it ends up having to be about the actual outcomes. I don’t really care what a hitter’s xWOBA is when I’m thinking about MVP, and the same is true for pitchers. Did you get the outs? Did the runs score? That’s the “value” that translates to the scoreboard and, ultimately, to the standings. So I think the B-R side of it is more sensible for awards.  I definitely take into account the types of factors that you (and other pitching fWAR advocates) reference as flaws. So if a guy plays in front of a particular bad defense or had a particularly high percentage of inherited runners score, I’d absolutely adjust my take to incorporate that info. And I also 100% go to Fangraphs first when I’m trying to figure out which pitchers we should acquire (i.e., for forward looking purposes).  But I just can’t bring myself say that my Cy Young is just whichever guy had the best ratio of Ks to BBs to HRs over a threshold number of innings. As @Frobby said, it just distills out too much of what actually happened.
    • We were all a lot younger in 2005.  No one wanted to believe Canseco cause he’s a smarmy guy. Like I said, he was the only one telling the truth. It wasn’t a leap of faith to see McGwire up there and Sosa up there and think “yeah, those guys were juicing” but then suddenly look at Raffy and think he was completely innocent.  It’s a sad story. The guy should be in Hall of Fame yet 500 homers and 3,000 hits are gone like a fart in the wind cause his legacy is wagging his finger and thinking he couldn’t get caught.  Don’t fly too close to the sun.  
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...