Jump to content

Cease vs everyone else


Sports Guy

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

My contention is that he’s not worth 2 top 100 and 2 other top Org prospects. The Reds ask that was reported by their beat writer was way too much with or without a 5th player. If the cost is anywhere in the zip code a deal isn’t getting done …at least not with the Orioles. 

I think what Elias is willing to offer and what Getz is willing to accept is close or the O's/WS would not still be in discussions.  I'm predicting that Elias is willing to give up 2 top 100 prospects and a 3rd lesser prospects.  If the sides weren't somewhat close, negotiations wouldn't be ongoing.  Obviously Elias doesn't think Cease is an average starter or he would sign a,Gibson type starter instead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Sounds like a pretty good assessment based off the noise out there. Someone could pop back into the situation, but either they need to come off their price tag or hope they can find a desperate team come the trading deadline. 

And hope Cease doesn't pitch the first half of 2024 like he did 2023.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

I think what Elias is willing to offer and what Getz is willing to accept is close or the O's/WS would not still be in discussions.  I'm predicting that Elias is willing to give up 2 top 100 prospects and a 3rd lesser prospects.  If the sides weren't somewhat close, negotiations wouldn't be ongoing.  Obviously Elias doesn't think Cease is an average starter or he would sign a,Gibson type starter instead.

How do you know the Orioles and White Sox are still in discussions?  My take is that they hit an impasse and each side is waiting for the other to blink.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

If I remember correctly they kept killing the Tex threads after a certain point and would start new ones.

 

Besides, there were no reports of Cease being seen at a Ravens game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Cease is traded, my guess is that White Sox fans will be calling for Getz's head for getting too little back.  If Cease is not traded, they will probably be calling for Getz's head for not getting 4 top 50 prospects plus 5 lottery tickets, as he should have easily been able to do.  Sounds about right - White Sox fans are pretty much like all other fans.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

I think what Elias is willing to offer and what Getz is willing to accept is close or the O's/WS would not still be in discussions.  I'm predicting that Elias is willing to give up 2 top 100 prospects and a 3rd lesser prospects.  If the sides weren't somewhat close, negotiations wouldn't be ongoing.  Obviously Elias doesn't think Cease is an average starter or he would sign a,Gibson type starter instead.

Here's my problem ... The Reds request by Getz according to the Reds beat writer was Lowder, Arroyo, Phillips, and Petty and perhaps a "5th Unnamed propsect".

The 1st 3 were in MLBs top 100 this fall at #41, #57, and #68. Lowder is 21 and was the 7th overall pick in the 2023 draft. The Reds didn't have him pitch in 2023. Arroyo a SS (Arm 55,Field 60) had a .757 OPS with 11 triples, 13 HR, 28 SBs , 60 RBI at A+ ball. While they wouldve preferred his Avg/OBP higher .252/.324 it was far from a disappointing season. Will he slip in the ranking? Possibly but I don't think he falls from #58 out of the top 100. Phillips is 22 was at AA and gave them 64 innings of 3.34 ERA and a WHIP of 1.3. He was sent to AAA and had a 4.69 ERA WHIP of 1.56 before getting a cup of coffee in the bigs of 5 starts 6.97 ERA 1.5 WHIP (18 hits in 20 innings but 13 walks). He as a grade 60 FB and 2 grade 50 pitches. He clearly wasn't ready for AAA much less the majors. To say he was rushed at 22 is an understatement. Does he fall out of the top 100? Petty is 20 years old and 60 FB, 60 Slider , 50 Change... was a 1st rounder in 2021 (26th overall) started the season injured but had 18 starts and 68 innings ERA 1.72 , Whip 1.15 .... I'm guessing they were pretty conservative with him after he returned as he averaged about 4 innings per start.

 

That is a haul and Getz wouldve been Lauded for getting all of that for 2 years of Cease.

 

Are the Orioles still talking? Sure ... I believe Elias probably has an offer on the table that might be the best offer. And hes told Getz to let him know. So while Getz is hoping for someone to get desperate and offer more its obvious that is not the case so far. I have no idea if Getz will take or keep Cease during the spring. But, I think the price keeps going down unless Cease reduplicates his 2022 season before the deadline,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our WS friends are debating which Mets prospects they want and expect back in a Cease trade.  Meanwhile:

1. That currently leaves them with a front five of Senga, Quintana, Manaea, Severino and Houser.   They got 5 starters

2. The Mets dumped their star pitchers and boatloads of money to get prospects back last deadline and David Stearns is a GM who built through the farm system.   Seems odd they’d trade top prospects for 2 years of Cease.

3. Signing Manaea and Severino hardly seems like all in moves.  Sending top prospects for 2 years of Cease is an all in move.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Our WS friends are debating which Mets prospects they want and expect back in a Cease trade.  Meanwhile:

1. That currently leaves them with a front five of Senga, Quintana, Manaea, Severino and Houser.   They got 5 starters

2. The Mets dumped their star pitchers and boatloads of money to get prospects back last deadline and David Stearns is a GM who built through the farm system.   Seems odd they’d trade top prospects for 2 years of Cease.

3. Signing Manaea and Severino hardly seems like all in moves.  Sending top prospects for 2 years of Cease is an all in move.

I think the Mets plan is to regroup a bit this year and push hard in 2025.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Number5 said:

If Cease is traded, my guess is that White Sox fans will be calling for Getz's head for getting too little back.  If Cease is not traded, they will probably be calling for Getz's head for not getting 4 top 50 prospects plus 5 lottery tickets, as he should have easily been able to do.  Sounds about right - White Sox fans are pretty much like all other fans.

I remember the O's were supposed to get 3 top 100 prospects for Gausman who had a way less impressive resume than Cease.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

I think both. I think Cease is worth it. We can absorb the lost of a Westburg, Cowser/Kjerstad package. The board was being homerish thinking that Cowser, Ortiz, and McDermott, were enough to get it done

But all of that is just my opinion. If Ortiz is such a plug and play SS for 6 years, then you would think the Dodgers would be beating down our door for him. I guess we found out what the rest of MLB thinks about him. 

Ehh I don’t think it’s very homer-ish to say that’s a bad trade for us and would be accepted by the Sox. That’s a lot of years of control, two ML ready top 100 prospects, and another young pitcher who looked really good last year. 
 

What do you think we’d have to add to get them to bite?

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think the Mets plan is to regroup a bit this year and push hard in 2025.

Yea I don’t see how trading for Cease makes any sense for the Mets. I think that’s WS fans dreaming and hoping for another team to be involved.

Boston seems to be having money issues and while Cease makes sense because he’s cheap, giving up even cheaper guys with a ton of service time doesn’t make sense.

It could be the Yankees or the Os.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Posts

    • dWAR is just the run value for defense added with the defensive adjustment.  Corner OF spots have a -7.5 run adjustment, while CF has a +2.5 adjustment over 150 games.    Since Cowser played both CF and the corners they pro-rate his time at each to calculate his defensive adjustment. 
    • Just to be clear, though, fWAR also includes a substantial adjustment for position, including a negative one for Cowser.  For a clearer example on that front, as the chart posted higher on this page indicates, Carlos Santana had a +14 OAA — which is the source data that fWAR’s defensive component is based on. That 14 outs above average equates to 11-12 (they use different values on this for some reason) runs better than the average 1B.  So does Santana have a 12.0 defensive value, per fWAR? He does not. That’s because they adjust his defensive value downward to reflect that he’s playing a less difficult/valuable position. In this case, that adjustment comes out to -11.0 runs, as you can see here:   So despite apparently having a bona fide Gold Glove season, Santana’s Fielding Runs value (FanGraphs’ equivalent to dWAR) is barely above average, at 1.1 runs.    Any good WAR calculation is going to adjust for position. Being a good 1B just isn’t worth as much as being an average SS or catcher. Just as being a good LF isn’t worth as much as being an average CF. Every outfielder can play LF — only the best outfielders can play CF.  Where the nuance/context shows up here is with Cowser’s unique situation. Playing LF in OPACY, with all that ground to cover, is not the same as playing LF at Fenway or Yankee Stadium. Treating Cowser’s “position” as equivalent to Tyler O’Neill’s, for example, is not fair. The degree of difficulty is much, much higher at OPACY’s LF, and so the adjustment seems out of whack for him. That’s the one place where I’d say the bWAR value is “unfair” to Cowser.
    • Wait a second here, the reason he's -0.1 in bb-ref dwar is because they're using drs to track his defensive run value.  He's worth 6.6 runs in defense according to fangraphs, which includes adjustments for position, which would give him a fangraphs defensive war of +0.7.
    • A little funny to have provided descriptions of the hits (“weak” single; “500 foot” HR). FIP doesn’t care about any of that either, so it’s kind of an odd thing to add in an effort to make ERA look bad.  Come in, strike out the first hitter, then give up three 108 MPH rocket doubles off the wall. FIP thinks you were absolutely outstanding, and it’s a shame your pathetic defense and/or sheer bad luck let you down. Next time you’ll (probably) get the outcomes you deserve. They’re both flawed. So is xFIP. So is SIERA. So is RA/9. So is WPA. So is xERA. None of them are perfect measures of how a pitcher’s actual performance was, because there’s way too much context and too many variables for any one metric to really encompass.  But when I’m thinking about awards, for me at least, it ends up having to be about the actual outcomes. I don’t really care what a hitter’s xWOBA is when I’m thinking about MVP, and the same is true for pitchers. Did you get the outs? Did the runs score? That’s the “value” that translates to the scoreboard and, ultimately, to the standings. So I think the B-R side of it is more sensible for awards.  I definitely take into account the types of factors that you (and other pitching fWAR advocates) reference as flaws. So if a guy plays in front of a particular bad defense or had a particularly high percentage of inherited runners score, I’d absolutely adjust my take to incorporate that info. And I also 100% go to Fangraphs first when I’m trying to figure out which pitchers we should acquire (i.e., for forward looking purposes).  But I just can’t bring myself say that my Cy Young is just whichever guy had the best ratio of Ks to BBs to HRs over a threshold number of innings. As @Frobby said, it just distills out too much of what actually happened.
    • We were all a lot younger in 2005.  No one wanted to believe Canseco cause he’s a smarmy guy. Like I said, he was the only one telling the truth. It wasn’t a leap of faith to see McGwire up there and Sosa up there and think “yeah, those guys were juicing” but then suddenly look at Raffy and think he was completely innocent.  It’s a sad story. The guy should be in Hall of Fame yet 500 homers and 3,000 hits are gone like a fart in the wind cause his legacy is wagging his finger and thinking he couldn’t get caught.  Don’t fly too close to the sun.  
    • I think if we get the fun sprinkler loving Gunnar that was in the dugout yesterday, I don’t think we have to worry about him pressing. He seemed loose and feeling good with the other guys he was with, like Kremer.
    • I was a lot younger back then, but that betrayal hit really hard because he had been painting himself as literally holier than thou, and shook his finger to a congressional committee and then barely 2 weeks later failed the test.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...