For those who want Carlos Lee....

[thrifty]

We are more likely to get an expensive vet with power than we are to get a young cheap big bat. The young guys are harder to come by. That is my opinion. I also think that we need 2 big bats, not one, although 1 is better than none. If we can get a Burrell, or a Sexson, or a Drew in a trade this season, then we can use all of our expected budget increase to go after the best starting pitchers available in free agency (including Zito), with the understanding that we will have to overpay significantly. That is our best hope: 1 big bat now, 2 marquee starting pitchers in the offseason, and 1 great bullpen arm in the offseason. We have to start the process now, rather than trying to get everything done over the offseason and run out of time and good players to improve. I also think we are going to have to pause our enthusisasm about our young pitchers until they are ready to contribute at the major league level. We can't depend on their expected growth for our rebuilding. Increase the budget and go get some proven arms. If the young arms pan out, we will be in an even better position. But depending on them to compete is foolish, given our injury history and developmental problems.

[NewMarketSean]

First, I think it is not true that top talent simply comes into MLB "playing well." There are tons of examples of a learning curve.

Second, I would say that Miguel Tejada, Melvin Mora, Brian Roberts and Ramon Hernandez are all top ML talent.

Third, what exactly do you want the O's to do? For years, everyone was *****ing about the lack of talent in the system, now there is some and we don't have the patience to let them all develop? Did you expect every single prospect to come in and start? Should we trade Cabrera? Bedard? Loewen? Why'd you conveniently leave off Liz and Erbe- dominating in the minors? Should we trade them too because they aren't "top talent"?

In all honesty, it sounds to me like you are just bitter (as you probably should be) and you are going to slam the O's and their "talent" until you are satisfied...

There have been numerous national publications, statistical breakdowns that suggest that these players are not just being over-hyped by desperate fans- Bedard, Cabrera, Penn, Loewen, Liz, Erbe, Olsen are legitimate talents...but not all of them will become all-stars and if they do it won't happen in two months...

There is no reason why we can't grow our own talent and supplement it via free agency. So far we are in the beginning stages of developing our own players and have been too gunshy when signing free agents.

It also doesn't help that Angelos is blubbering about "making things better" or "this time it will literally come true."

[ejf1025]

There is no reason why we can't grow our own talent and supplement it via free agency. So far we are in the beginning stages of developing our own players and have been too gunshy when signing free agents.

It also doesn't help that Angelos is blubbering about "making things better" or "this time it will literally come true."

Well, I think people should generally ignore what Angelos or any other owner says; it's all spin to get people to pay money for things...

But isn't that what we did this past off-season? We cultivated pitching talent and went out and got one of the best defensive catchers in baseball, the best pitching coach in baseball, an innings-eating starter and a veteran set-up man. While, I thought the addition of both Millar and Conine was redundant...it did serve to lighten up a terrible clubhouse.

As I have repeatedly said, I'm willing to give Flanny a clean slate working without Beattie...so far I do not have much of an issue with many of his moves, and the much larger impact of Mazzone/Hernandez outweighs short-terms stop gaps Millar/Conine.

This off-season will be very telling, but this team is performing right around where I expected them too- and have suffered through a rash of injuries. The pitching has been shakier than any of us had hoped, but again I think all of our expectations were a little too high. Two months is nothing.

[Sports Guy]

Sean, are you that bad at judging talent? You don't think the pitching is that talented?

You don't think Markakis or Ramon Hernandez are very talented?

Give me a break.

[NewMarketSean]

Well, I think people should generally ignore what Angelos or any other owner says; it's all spin to get people to pay money for things...

But isn't that what we did this past off-season? We cultivated pitching talent and went out and got one of the best defensive catchers in baseball, the best pitching coach in baseball, an innings-eating starter and a veteran set-up man. While, I thought the addition of both Millar and Conine was redundant...it did serve to lighten up a terrible clubhouse.

As I have repeatedly said, I'm willing to give Flanny a clean slate working without Beattie...so far I do not have much of an issue with many of his moves, and the much larger impact of Mazzone/Hernandez outweighs short-terms stop gaps Millar/Conine.

This off-season will be very telling, but this team is performing right around where I expected them too- and have suffered through a rash of injuries. The pitching has been shakier than any of us had hoped, but again I think all of our expectations were a little too high. Two months is nothing.

In a vacuum, the "upgrades" we made look OK -- but not "good." Hernandez is good no matter how you look at it, and the Benson trade is still looking very good.

But even with those moves, we are still 18-21 and 3-13 against the Yanks, Red Sox, and Blue Jays.

However, those moves are not all we could have done. We could have still added perhaps another starter, traded Lopez, and bulked up the line-up outside of Conine and Millar.

I think the O's need to look at FA's as a chance to plug in a hole for the long term. Guys like Conine and Millar don't do that.

[ejf1025]

In a vacuum, the "upgrades" we made look OK -- but not "good." Hernandez is good no matter how you look at it, and the Benson trade is still looking very good.

But even with those moves, we are still 18-21 and 3-13 against the Yanks, Red Sox, and Blue Jays.

However, those moves are not all we could have done. We could have still added perhaps another starter, traded Lopez, and bulked up the line-up outside of Conine and Millar.

I think the O's need to look at FA's as a chance to plug in a hole for the long term. Guys like Conine and Millar don't do that.

But what do you want?

The success of this organization is entirely dependent on the progress of our young pitchers....as it should be.

I didn't expect us to compete this year because I figured Bedard/Cabrera/Ray/Markakis/Rleal/Penn/Loewen would all go through some growing pains....BUT if we were going to compete in '06 it was going to be a result of Cabrera and Bedard progressing in leaps and bounds. Period.

Konerko, Ryan, Glaus, et al could have helped us for sure. And maybe we should have, could have, tried to make plays on these players and for whatever reason it failed...it still doesn't change that at the end of the day the growth of our own players is going to make or break this club.

[camdenyardblues]

I didn't expect us to compete this year because I figured Bedard/Cabrera/Ray/Markakis/Rleal/Penn/Loewen would all go through some growing pains....BUT if we were going to compete in '06 it was going to be a result of Cabrera and Bedard progressing in leaps and bounds. Period.

There's another thread about this but this is what scares me about this organization. The FO is following the OAK and MINN model by banking on their young pitching will develop into aces. It could happen but I'm not terribly confident about it and I hope the FO has a plan B.

[ejf1025]

There's another thread about this but this is what scares me about this organization. The FO is following the OAK and MINN model by banking on their young pitching will develop into aces. It could happen but I'm not terribly confident about it and I hope the FO has a plan B.

This is the only way for us to compete.

Pitching is so important that it is virtually impossible to compete in the free agent market for arms- especially in the AL East.

I'm not crying poor, but the Yanks/Sox will always be willing to outspend the entire league for pitching. Hitting you can find in the free agent market. Pitching you can not.

You don't necesarilly have to develop an entire 5-man stuff, but I certainly believe that you must develop 2 or 3 reliable arms. Once that is done, than it becomes infinitely easier to add pieces via trade/free agency.

[EvilJellyBeans]

I don't know why some people don't seem to want Carlos Lee.

*He's never had less than 80 RBIs

*He's had two 110 RBI seasons

*He hit less than 20 HRs one year- his rookie year

*He's had 20 HRs 6 straight years

*He's hit 25 HRs 4 straight years

*He's had 30 HRs 3 straight years

*His homer total has gone up every year

CAREER AVERAGES

28 HR, 100 RBI, 93 R, 11 SB, .284 AVG, .339 OBP, .494 SLG, .833 OPS

3 YEAR AVERAGES

31 HR, 109 RBI, 96 R, 14 SB, .287 AVG, .340 OBP, .504 SLG, .844 OPS

I don't understand why anyone would not want to add that to our lineup, even if he is a bit expensive.

[camdenyardblues]

This is the only way for us to compete.

Pitching is so important that it is virtually impossible to compete in the free agent market for arms- especially in the AL East.

I'm not crying poor, but the Yanks/Sox will always be willing to outspend the entire league for pitching. Hitting you can find in the free agent market. Pitching you can not.

You don't necesarilly have to develop an entire 5-man stuff, but I certainly believe that you must develop 2 or 3 reliable arms. Once that is done, than it becomes infinitely easier to add pieces via trade/free agency.

I agree but where do you get those last pieces? Like I said before, with Bedard, I think you have a Kirk Rueter type. A great number 3 starter you can use in the playoffs. Cabrera may not be an ace but he'll be usable. Throw in Penn, Loewen, etc, hopefully one of these guys will develop into relieable starters. But you still need two aces. Where do you get those pieces? You just said that it is virtually impossible to compete in the free agent market for arms- especially in the AL East. That leaves trades which worries me. Or you hope Penn, Loewen, etc turn into Mark Buerhle which also worries me.

[RShack]

There's another thread about this but this is what scares me about this organization. The FO is following the OAK and MINN model by banking on their young pitching will develop into aces. It could happen but I'm not terribly confident about it and I hope the FO has a plan B.

It's not just copying how OAK and MIN do it... it's a crucial part of restoring exactly what they did when The Oriole Way existed. Really. Go back and see.

People *say* they want The Oriole Way again. But I don't think they do. I think what they really want The Steinbrenner Way.

[camdenyardblues]

It's not just copying how OAK and MIN do it... it's a crucial part of restoring exactly what they did when The Oriole Way existed. Really. Go back and see.

Huh, don't quite get what you mean here. The Oriole Way and OAK/MIN way are not comparable?

[ejf1025]

I agree but where do you get those last pieces? Like I said before, with Bedard, I think you have a Kirk Rueter type. A great number 3 starter you can use in the playoffs. Cabrera may not be an ace but he'll be usable. Throw in Penn, Loewen, etc, hopefully one of these guys will develop into relieable starters. But you still need two aces. Where do you get those pieces? You just said that it is virtually impossible to compete in the free agent market for arms- especially in the AL East. That leaves trades which worries me. Or you hope Penn, Loewen, etc turn into Mark Buerhle which also worries me.

So trades worries you.

So does developing prospects.

I mean, do you have some magical formula to come up with two aces?

In short, yes, you wait for them to become Mark Buerhle.

[ejf1025]

Huh, don't quite get what you mean here. The Oriole Way and OAK/MIN way are not comparable?

What are you talking about?

Developing pitching was the key to the O's glory days.

It's the key to baseball.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Huh, don't quite get what you mean here. The Oriole Way and OAK/MIN way are not comparable?

The Minnesota way is developing as much young talent as possible because your owner won't spend more then $30 million on payroll until you can win and increase attendence.

The Oakland way is to look for an undervalued trait that you can find cheap and exploit.

The Oriole Way is to build a strong defense and pitching staff through the minors (although that last bit can be negotiable in the age of free agency).