Sanity check...

[Burg]

So if DT is responsible for the underperformance of Wieters, Reimold, Matusz, and Jones, oh and Lugo and Atkins as well, why isn't he equally resposible for Wiggi's, Ohman's, CPatt's, Millwood's Guhrie's, Berken's, surprisingly good performance. And Nick's improvement in the BB/K dept. and Miggi's much better than expected glove at 3B? If we expect the new manager to magically improve the performance of the former wouldn't removing DT magically cause the latter to decline?

Do you think DT is a long term solution at manager?

[Burg]

You can grade the manager however you want.

But there is a basic concept here that evidently is hard for some folks to grasp... namely that I'm not talking about the manager, I'm talking about what is reasonable to expect about the team's performance over the last 30-some games, and whether it has "seriously under-performed" since the first 18 days of the season and since it lost half it's good players.

Now, if you don't wanna talk about that, that's fine, there are lots of threads where you can bash the manager. I just wanna have one little sliver of space where there is room to talk about how the team has been doing after the horrible start. After all, this is the "OH", not "firedavetrembley.com", so there should be a little room for discussing that someplace around here, don't you think? Or is that not allowed?

I realize that I am in no way as smart as you, nor do I have the ability to "stay above the fray" that you most certainly have but answer this simple question - Why in God's name does DT get a pass for the 2-16 start?

Was he abducted by aliens? Was it not him on the bench for all 18 games? What, exactly, gives you the ability to just say "forget the god-awful start and focus on the slightly above god-awful last 30 something games"?

And how do you explain away the god-awful finish to last season? Bad luck?

[El Gordo]

You can grade the manager however you want.

But there is a basic concept here that evidently is hard for some folks to grasp... namely that I'm not talking about the manager, I'm talking about what is reasonable to expect about the team's performance over the last 30-some games, and whether it has "seriously under-performed" since the first 18 days of the season and since it lost half it's good players.

Now, if you don't wanna talk about that, that's fine, there are lots of threads where you can bash the manager. I just wanna have one little sliver of space where there is room to talk about how the team has been doing after the horrible start. After all, this is the "OH", not "firedavetrembley.com", so there should be a little room for discussing that someplace around here, don't you think? Or is that not allowed?

Many people don't like to think about things they don't like to think about. :laughlol:

[LA2]

So if DT is responsible for the underperformance of Wieters, Reimold, Matusz, and Jones, oh and Lugo and Atkins as well, why isn't he equally resposible for Wiggi's, Ohman's, CPatt's, Millwood's Guhrie's, Berken's, surprisingly good performance. And Nick's improvement in the BB/K dept. and Miggi's much better than expected glove at 3B? If we expect the new manager to magically improve the performance of the former wouldn't removing DT magically cause the latter to decline?

Not only he, but some of his much-maligned coaches as well.

[El Gordo]

Do you think DT is a long term solution at manager?

Don't know, but I do think that no good long term solution is currently available.

[Burg]

Don't know, but I do think that no good long term solution is currently available.

So if he's not a long term solution, his team has been record-setting bad for well over the last 100 games he's been on the bench, why keep him?

At what point do you can him - when we're 40 games under .500?

Fire him - name an interim - and find a solution in the offseason. It's not fair to him, the team, or the fans, to allow this debacle to continue without TRYING to fix it.

[DrungoHazewood]

But there is a basic concept here that evidently is hard for some folks to grasp... namely that I'm not talking about the manager, I'm talking about what is reasonable to expect about the team's performance over the last 30-some games, and whether it has "seriously under-performed" since the first 18 days of the season and since it lost half it's good players.

I think I'm grasping just fine the concept that, since 1 May, the Orioles have played on a 57-win pace. That's the pace of a team that's roughly 12 games over replacement. That basically means that you take Markakis, Millwood, and Guthrie, and the whole rest of the team has played like a bunch of AAA journeymen. And that includes Wigginton's mini-Ruth impersonation.

Yes, they've seriously under-performed. Be that in the first 18 days, the remaining 30-some, or any other section of games you can parse out.

[The Rick]

Many people don't like to think about things they don't like to think about. :laughlol:

Yeah, real cute.

The reality is many people have pointed out the O's slightly better play since the start. Yet, here's RShack being Orange Colored Glasses hero again by taking it to a level to say that overall, since everything bad happened, since we lost valuable players, we're not doing too bad. It would take the players and/or the manager trying to steal your wives for you & RShack to get angry or "insane" towards the O's. When EVERYONE on the planet sees things for what they are, and you and your partner keep denying the obvious, maybe it's not "us" who need the sanity check.

[El Gordo]

I realize that I am in no way as smart as you, nor do I have the ability to "stay above the fray" that you most certainly have but answer this simple question - Why in God's name does DT get a pass for the 2-16 start?

Was he abducted by aliens? Was it not him on the bench for all 18 games? What, exactly, gives you the ability to just say "forget the god-awful start and focus on the slightly above god-awful last 30 something games"?

And how do you explain away the god-awful finish to last season? Bad luck?

I keep bringing this up and no one respnds to it, but during that 2-16 start JJ and Gonzo combined for 4 BS and JJ added a BSL They were both hiding injuries when they were pitching. Aassuming they had been healthy, they would not have blown most of those saves. That might have meant a 7- 11/6-12 record instead. Then since BRob was out for most of the 18 games, I think it is fair to assume that we might have one 1 or 2 more games. We lost a lot of one run games as I recall. So why is DT reponsible for all of that? Without the injuries we might have been 8-10 during that stretch. Not bad considering the schedule.

[SteveA]

So if DT is responsible for the underperformance of Wieters, Reimold, Matusz, and Jones, oh and Lugo and Atkins as well, why isn't he equally resposible for Wiggi's, Ohman's, CPatt's, Millwood's Guhrie's, Berken's, surprisingly good performance. And Nick's improvement in the BB/K dept. and Miggi's much better than expected glove at 3B? If we expect the new manager to magically improve the performance of the former wouldn't removing DT magically cause the latter to decline?

You're right. He is responsible for everything, the good and the bad. The buck stops with the manager.

And we are 15-36.

[Burg]

I think I'm grasping just fine the concept that, since 1 May, the Orioles have played on a 57-win pace. That's the pace of a team that's roughly 12 games over replacement. That basically means that you take Markakis, Millwood, and Guthrie, and the whole rest of the team has played like a bunch of AAA journeymen. And that includes Wigginton's mini-Ruth impersonation.

Yes, they've seriously under-performed. Be that in the first 18 days, the remaining 30-some, or any other section of games you can parse out.

As usual, if you point out the flaws in an Rshack monologue, you just "can't grasp the concept".

Of course, he has yet to answer the question of why we aren't counting the first 18 games of the season. Maybe we just can't grasp the concept of why they should count.

[wildcard]

RShack,

To me you are rationalizing.

The reason the I believe that Trembley needs to be replaced has to do with bullpen management. He has regularly pulled guys who are pitching well and played guys who have been playing terrible all in the name of matchups even when the the matchups aren't good matchups to start with. This is clearly the responsible of he manager. And when I listen to his explanation it does not sound like it is going to do any better in the future. His logic is messed up IMO.

You can blame the record on injuries or MacPhail signing the wrong guys or the schedule but when you watch the games the O's have had their chances to win their share of games and Trembley's overworking of the pen and picking the wrong pitchers in critical spots has hurt this team badly.

Blaming the pen on the injury is only a partial answers. Pulling Berken or Ohman or Albers when they are pitching well for a match up with Castillo is just madding and not good management. Within the last week Hernandez has joined the pen and was not used when he could have been to try and win a game that the O's were ahead in. Albers has pitched to a 2.70 ERA in May but he is pulled when he pitching well.

Use 5 or 6 reliever in one night and then having everyone overworked so the they are not effective or not available in the following games is not good management. In no way am I saying that the O's have the pen to win everytime a close game or lead is handed to them but Trembley's management of the pen has not been good. Wins and losses aren't really the measurement here. Its who is put in what situation and was there a better way to do it. Using one of the better pitcher (Ohman) when the team is behind by 5 runs just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Is the team underperforming? Well look at what Jones, Miggi, Wieters are doing, Nick's lack of power and add in Reimold's demotion which accounts for many to low scoring games and I have to say yes. But I don't blame the lack of scoring or winning on Trembley. His bullpen management speaks for itself though.

[The Rick]

I keep bring this up and no one respnds to it but during that 2-16 start JJ and Gonzo combined for 4 BS and JJ added a BSL They were both hiding injuries when they were opitching. Aassuming they had been healthy they would niot have blown those saves. that might have meant a 7- 11 record instead. then since BRob was out for most of the 18 games I think it is fair to assume that we might have one 1 or 2 more games. We lost a lot of one rine games as I recall. So why is DT reponsible for all of that? Without the injuries we might have been 8-10 during that stretch. Not bad considering the schedule.

You're making an awful lot of assumptions here. So it's impossible to blow a save unless you're hiding an injury?

[Burg]

I keep bring this up and no one respnds to it but during that 2-16 start JJ and Gonzo combined for 4 BS and JJ added a BSL They were both hiding injuries when they were opitching. Aassuming they had been healthy they would niot have blown those saves. that might have meant a 7- 11 record instead. then since BRob was out for most of the 18 games I think it is fair to assume that we might have one 1 or 2 more games. We lost a lot of one rine games as I recall. So why is DT reponsible for all of that? Without the injuries we might have been 8-10 during that stretch. Not bad considering the schedule.

Please. How can you assume we would have won all of those games? Is it not possible for anyone else to have blown a save? How about asking DT why the hell he kept trotting them out when they were obviously not right? I realize they had a "role" but everyone knew Gonzo was bad and DT just kept his head in the sand.

All of your "mights" and "maybes" are irrelevant. The team sucked for the last 50+ games last year and is on a record-setting level of suck for the first 50 games this year. DT doesn't deserve to keep his job.

[El Gordo]

So if he's not a long term solution, his team has been record-setting bad for well over the last 100 games he's been on the bench, why keep him?

At what point do you can him - when we're 40 games under .500?

Fire him - name an interim - and find a solution in the offseason. It's not fair to him, the team, or the fans, to allow this debacle to continue without TRYING to fix it.

I didn't say he was not a long term solution. I said I didn't know. They mean different things. I might know, if I had seen DT manage a team that was healthy, and had a decent #3 and #4 hitter and a bullpen. I would fire him if after he gets BRob, Pie and Gonzo back, they are healthy, but the team continues to lose. Or he loses the clubhouse, which ever came first.