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2012 Baseball Hall of Fame: Barry Larkin, SS Cincinnati

BaltimoreTerp

By BaltimoreTerp
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mweb Hangout Grand Counsel

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Jack Morris jumped fourteen points, to 67%. He will be getting in within his final two years.

Jeff Bagwell jumped fifteen points. Lee Smith jumped five to get above 50%. Tim Raines jumped eleven points. Alan Trammell jumped twelve points.

If that happens, it will be the biggest mistake the writers have made in a long time other than some omissions. Why not just put Dennis Martinez in the Hall while they're at it.

It's nice to see some of the other jumps, but the lack of support for Bagwell, Raines, Trammell, Edgar, and Raffy is rather absurd imo.

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BaltimoreTerp Hangout Grand Counsel

BaltimoreTerp

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If that happens, it will be the biggest mistake the writers have made in a long time other than some omissions. Why not just put Dennis Martinez in the Hall while they're at it.

It's nice to see some of the other jumps, but the lack of support for Bagwell, Raines, Trammell, Edgar, and Raffy is rather absurd imo.

Rice and Dawson are just as bad, if not worse.

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Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

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Jack Morris jumped fourteen points, to 67%. He will be getting in within his final two years.

Jeff Bagwell jumped fifteen points. Lee Smith jumped five to get above 50%. Tim Raines jumped eleven points. Alan Trammell jumped twelve points.

I don't know that Morris gets in. The anti-Morris contingent that is left is pretty adamant that Morris isn't worthy.

You also have the following names entering the ballot:Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Biggio, Schilling, Sosa

I said it the other day, the backlog of steroid tainted but otherwise deserving HOF candidates is going to cause issues with boarderline candidates.

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DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

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If that happens, it will be the biggest mistake the writers have made in a long time other than some omissions. Why not just put Dennis Martinez in the Hall while they're at it.

It's nice to see some of the other jumps, but the lack of support for Bagwell, Raines, Trammell, Edgar, and Raffy is rather absurd imo.

Congrats to Larkin, he's a fully deserving HOFer. They definitely got this one right.

But I want to see the contortions the writers have gone through to justify Larkin going in but Trammell not getting particularly close. Larkin's top comp on bb-ref is Trammell. They both have rWAR totals in the high 60s. They both won multiple GGs and SSers and both ended up with about 1.25 career MVP shares. Of course Larkin got more Gold Gloves and Silver Sluggers, partly because he wasn't competing directly with Cal Ripken. Trammell didn't win an MVP award but had an excellent case in '87 (2nd in WAR, lost to a clearly inferior George Bell), while Larkin did win in '95 despite finishing 5th in the league in rWAR.

Basically, they're two very similar, excellent candidates who were peers but Larkin somehow has been perceived as the better player.

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DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

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I don't know that Morris gets in. The anti-Morris contingent that is left is pretty adamant that Morris isn't worthy.

You also have the following names entering the ballot:Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Biggio, Schilling, Sosa

I said it the other day, the backlog of steroid tainted but otherwise deserving HOF candidates is going to cause issues with boarderline candidates.

If Morris doesn't get in he'll be the first player to get to 67% with eligibility left and not get in.

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Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

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Congrats to Larkin, he's a fully deserving HOFer. They definitely got this one right.

But I want to see the contortions the writers have gone through to justify Larkin going in but Trammell not getting particularly close. Larkin's top comp on bb-ref is Trammell. They both have rWAR totals in the high 60s. They both won multiple GGs and SSers and both ended up with about 1.25 career MVP shares. Of course Larkin got more Gold Gloves and Silver Sluggers, partly because he wasn't competing directly with Cal Ripken. Trammell didn't win an MVP award but had an excellent case in '87 (2nd in WAR, lost to a clearly inferior George Bell), while Larkin did win in '95 despite finishing 5th in the league in rWAR.

Basically, they're two very similar, excellent candidates who were peers but Larkin somehow has been perceived as the better player.

Could be Larkin's TV work.

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mweb Hangout Grand Counsel

mweb

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Rice and Dawson are just as bad, if not worse.

No way to Dawson. He was significantly better than Morris. Worth 17.7 more rWAR and had a significantly better peak.

Rice is only 2.2 rWAR better, but accumulated that in a much shorter period of time and at least was a great hitter for some years while Morris was never really a great pitcher. Both awful selections, but I think Morris would be slightly worse.

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Well deserved for Larkin, just a shame he didn't get in sooner. I've no great opinion on Jack Morris, but I'm inclined to believe from looking at this stats that he's not quite up to Hall standards, but that's just me. Bagwell should have already been in, but hopefully he'll be in within the next couple of voting cycles. Good news that Raines jumped as much as he did, but again, no reason it shouldn't have been higher/he's not already in.

Random Comment: I know he's a symbol of the steroid era, and if he hasn't been outed he likely did it, but I'm still slightly surprised that Juan Gonzalez didn't even make it to 5% when you consider the counting stats, a career .904 OPS, and two MVP awards. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't believe he was a Hall of Famer. Was he overrated? A great case can be made for that, steroids or no steroids. Did his breakdown at the end of his career cost him? Probably. But, a lot lesser players, steroids or no steroids, got 5% of the vote. Consider me slightly surprised.

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mweb Hangout Grand Counsel

mweb

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Well deserved for Larkin, just a shame he didn't get in sooner. I've no great opinion on Jack Morris, but I'm inclined to believe from looking at this stats that he's not quite up to Hall standards, but that's just me. Bagwell should have already been in, but hopefully he'll be in within the next couple of voting cycles. Good news that Raines jumped as much as he did, but again, no reason it shouldn't have been higher/he's not already in.

Random Comment: I know he's a symbol of the steroid era, and if he hasn't been outed he likely did it, but I'm still slightly surprised that Juan Gonzalez didn't even make it to 5% when you consider the counting stats, a career .904 OPS, and two MVP awards. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't believe he was a Hall of Famer. Was he overrated? A great case can be made for that, steroids or no steroids. Did his breakdown at the end of his career cost him? Probably. But, a lot lesser players, steroids or no steroids, got 5% of the vote. Consider me slightly surprised.

In terms of their careers, Juan Gonzalez was basically an awful fielding and more injury prone version of Jim Rice. In other words, very very far from having a decent HOF case.

He did get over 5% last year.

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DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

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A small hall man can still hope right?

The writers can't take that away from me!

:)

Dave Stieb > Jack Morris

Yea, I agree. There are actually about a dozen, maybe 18 pitchers in between Steib and Morris on the 1970-2000 WAR list, including such luminaries as Steve Rogers, Mark Langston, Orel Hershiser, and Bob Welch. Wilbur Wood actually has an identical rWAR to Morris, and Morris never had two consecutive seasons where he totalled 48 wins and 736 innings(!!).

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