I really like what Duquette is doing

[Fla_O'sfan]

Only on the Hangout can people be impressed by adding depth to a team that has posted one of the worst 4 year streches in team History.

Sign IMPACT players --- not backups and number 7 starters

How in the hell are we ever going to get out of this mess unless we draft well AND sign above average ML talent to compete with the other teams/players IN OUR DIVISION.

To answer your question...they aren't going to get out of this mess. They are light years behind the other AL East teams and falling further behind. People on here act like the team is going to pass the hat and everyone is going to have to chip in if the team signs even one quality FA.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I agree Dan Duquette has kept his word by adding depth, but impact players won't just 'fall in your lap' at every turn. Monitoring the market is fine, as long as you're still able to pull the trigger when needed.

I'm surely not advocating that 9/214 was in the best interest of the Orioles, but adding $4 million per starters, and utility infielders are not the impact I would expect after 14 straight losing seasons. I understand the Moneyball way of thinking, but the last time I checked, Billy Beane is still trying to win that final game of the series.

I'm not asking that we sign every $100 million dollar free-agent, but adding a few players that actually made an impact in 2011, is not that much to ask.

First of all, we aren't even in that series. So why not try to get there first before worrying about winning that final game?

What you are advocating is exactly what the Orioles get criticized for doing every year: signing mid-level talent for too much money (just so they will report to camp) because the team wants someone who can make an "impact". That strategy does not succeed, and you can try and claim that you want to see certain guys all you want, but you will be whining just the same when the team is still winning 74 games and cannot get talent to the majors because spots are blocked.

Duquette appears to be trying to do things differently. Making wholesale changes with the internal structure of the organization. Putting more resources into foreign players then just signing Koji Uehara. Building for the long-term good of the club. That is worth far more than spending $20 million on three extra wins in 2012.

[atomic]

Ridiculous. As of now are starting line up would be:

Andino/Antonelli 2B

Markakis RF

CF Jones

C Wieters

3B Reynolds

1B Davis

SS Hardy

DH Betemit

LF Reimold

which 4-5 are not ML caliber?

ML caliber for a last place team. I think Hardy, Jones, Wieters, Markakis are winning team caliber players. Though Markakis isn't up to maybe star right fielder quality I think he is servicable. Andino is a good utility man on a winning team. I don't see a starting second baseman or firstbase man of major league quality in that group. Left field geez Reimold is older than Fielder and has yet to do anything. And reynolds is not a major league quality fielding third baseman. I still can't believe we see Betemit as our DH.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Only on the Hangout can people be impressed by adding depth to a team that has posted one of the worst 4 year streches in team History.

Sign IMPACT players --- not backups and number 7 starters

How in the hell are we ever going to get out of this mess unless we draft well AND sign above average ML talent to compete with the other teams/players IN OUR DIVISION.

How can we get out of this mess if we sign that talent now so that by the time enough of the well-drafted talent is ready those players are already expensive and declining?

[MarylandAaron]

Really? Which half?

ML caliber:

C-Wieters

CF-Jones

RF-Markakis

SS-Hardy

Possibly Betemit or Reimold? Anyone else?

[Singleton]

I don't get the bolded. Spend to get young talent? You draft young talent. And have to spend when you go overslot, which the O's have been doing. You can also trade for young talent. We don't have much that will get us a ton. I could see dealing Jones, and would support that for the right haul. If DD is not seeing that haul, he isn't pulling the trigger. Can't blame him there. He's working with the hand we was dealt. And it seems like he's making smart, but not earth-shattering moves.

Ok. I didn't mean "spend" literally. I meant use resources to acquire young talent. I suppose there's not much debate when you use phrases like "he's working with the hand he was dealt" and he didn't make a trade cause he didn't see the "right haul."

I'll just say that lots of prospects were traded and acquired this offseason as in ever offseason and I don't think we acquired one significant prospect. I am of the opinion that we could have used the chips we had to trade for younger talent. We haven't and given the moves he's made, I would have to say it hasn't been DD's priority.

[BaltimoreTerp]

ML caliber for a last place team. I think Hardy, Jones, Wieters, Markakis are winning team caliber players. Though Markakis isn't up to maybe star right fielder quality I think he is servicable. Andino is a good utility man on a winning team. I don't see a starting second baseman or firstbase man of major league quality in that group. Left field geez Reimold is older than Fielder and has yet to do anything. And reynolds is not a major league quality fielding third baseman. I still can't believe we see Betemit as our DH.

Reimold put up the sixth-best OPS among AL left fielders last season with 300 PAs. We know you're wrong about Reynolds (and even if you are given fielding, not counting him as major-league caliber because the team has him at third while you would DH him shows your bias against him).

[BaltimoreTerp]

ML caliber:

C-Wieters

CF-Jones

RF-Markakis

SS-Hardy

Possibly Betemit or Reimold? Anyone else?

Reynolds PLUS your two "possiblies". Basically not first or second base.

[Singleton]

it's a 2 step process to get young talent. First acquire depth, second trade that depth for young talent. The second step is dependent on the first doing well. it's a numbers game, and we signed a lot of players.

that is the approach to acquiring young talent. the only other way we could get young talent is to trade our own young talent for more of it, but that would be counter productive. there really is no 'young' talent available as free agents. so how else would we get it?

What young talent are you getting for Taylor Teagarden and Endy Chavez? There is another obvious way to acquire young talent that you left off

Most teams that are rebuilding trade their more established vets for young talent (see 2012 Cubs, A's, etc.).

[atomic]

Reimold put up the sixth-best OPS among AL left fielders last season with 300 PAs. We know you're wrong about Reynolds (and even if you are given fielding, not counting him as major-league caliber because the team has him at third while you would DH him shows your bias against him).

You know I am wrong about Reynolds? Funny you have an opinion. He is an awful fielder. He was taken off third for a reason. An even his war isn't anything. And he is terrible in the clutch. I can see with my eyes and stats back me up. I am not even going to get started on Reimold. There is a resason why the team got less than 70 wins once again. Bad pitching, Awful Fielding. And a bunch of players who don't hit, have awful obp, are bad in the clutch. We haven't improved that. If Chen and Wada are able to get people out that will be a plus but we haven't done much to improve the team.

Anyone who supports Reynolds I figure to be a young fan who didn't see the team back in their prime. They don't know what a good baseball player looks like.

[MarylandAaron]

Reynolds PLUS your two "possiblies". Basically not first or second base.

Reynolds' power is negated by his poor defense.

Reimold has been inconsistent, although I feel like he can be serviceable in LF. However, he is basically a question mark at this point.

Betemit is a pretty decent hitter but has negative defensive value. If used strictly as a DH, he will probably provide 0-1 WAR.

[Singleton]

What resources is he spending?

He knows exactly what we all know: 2012 is not going to be a winning season. Any good that comes from this year will be in getting the young starters on the right track and finding answers to some of the problems this team needs to solve:

Can Reynolds stick at third base?

Can Davis hit enough to play first or DH?

Can Andino replace Roberts for the near-future, or if not him can Antonelli or Flaherty win the job?

Is Reimold a major-league outfielder?

And so on.

The other realistic option is to spend money on more expensive players who will only provide a few additional wins on their own but restrict the ability of the team to find answers to the problems.

Spending a few bucks on Chavez and Betemit give the club flexibility and depth without blocking anyone who is truly ready to play in the majors. Teagarden could be the backup catcher for several years. The Asian pitchers look like good bets to help the staff in the near future.

Plus, if the Orioles really do make moves for younger talent--trading Guthrie and Jones and maybe Reynolds or Markakis--there are replacements in place so, for example, they don't have to waste value on someone like Prado if they don't think he's more than a guy to fill a hole.

I'm not going to argue whether or not certain moves should have been made already. I'm a "judge the off-season at the end" guy, but I know a lot of people cannot help themselves. I will argue that no move made this off-season is preventing the Orioles from moving in a direction of trading established talent for prospects, and in fact most moves made could help that plan along if that is the direction the team chooses.

I think your assumptions about this year make sense given our current roster. Yes, with this roster lets see what we have in Reynolds, Davis, Andino, Reimold, etc. On the other hand, having these players on the roster at the start of the offseason wouldn't have prevented me from acquiring other young talent in their place.

Sure the offseason isn't over but it is clearly winding down. Rosters are shaping up giving teams less flexibility to make moves and free agents seem more motivated to find a home. The big question is -- given that 2012 isn't going to be a winning season (as you acknowledge) and 2013 isn't looking so swell either -- why aren't we trading our veteran assets whose value will likely decline or who will get more expensive now. Why not cash them in for young talent that might be part of a future playoff contender. Maybe.

You could say the same as the bolded above about AM's offseason last year. Right?

[Oriolidae85]

Do not ever want to discount the depth, but out of Chavez, Antonelli, Teagarden, Miller and Flaherty, Ryan wins the games played award (132 GP last year) for 2011. That is a low bar across the board...especially if you start looking at the total GP by the first four mentioned players over the last three seasons.

[hoosiers]

I think DD has done just fine this offseason.

I still believe there is upside in Wieters, Jones, Matusz, Markakis and several others that can make this a respectable team and am glad DD did not blow this up when he likely would have received less than full value in trade.

The signing of Chen was a very good move, IMO, and DD's expanded efforts internationally are also welcome. Hopefully, the other moves with regard to minor league instruction will pay off. Something needed to be done.

The team as currently constructed has the capacity to add significant payroll. Perhaps there is a salary dump from another team still to happen.

I'd really like to see another player added of the quality of Chen if possible a la a deal like Hardy's last offseason.

[24fps]

Only on the Hangout can people be impressed by adding depth to a team that has posted one of the worst 4 year streches in team History.

Sign IMPACT players --- not backups and number 7 starters

How in the hell are we ever going to get out of this mess unless we draft well AND sign above average ML talent to compete with the other teams/players IN OUR DIVISION.

The answer is never. Then again, I don't recall too many serious posters ever arguing otherwise; the real debate has always been around when is the appropriate time to take the substantial risk with high-dollar FA's given the wholly reasonable proposition that funds are limited and organizational depth is currently insufficient to justify the gamble.

Using the last four years as a call to action is unlikely to generate much response around here and why should it? We get it and have for a long time. The same goes for the difficulty of existing in the AL East with an unbalanced schedule. Old news. The first step to getting out of the mess is to recognize that the solution has more than two components and to formulate the problem on a 1+1 and done basis isn't merely simplistic, it's yawn-inducing.