Jump to content

Cal Ripken's Legacy


TonySoprano

Recommended Posts

Cal has a lot to gain from being seen a National guy and not a Baltimore guy. More endorsements, speaking opportunities, business opportunities, TV opportunities and so forth. Just because you choose to not believe it does not make it so. Ask around in some circles away from this board from people in the know and then see how you feel about the situation.

Tony, I deal with MLB AM a fair amount. I speak to people all over the game, both in ownership, business, and ops. None of them are watching TBS to see whether Cal is really an "O's" guy, or a "national" guy. He's one of the most recognizable names/faces in the game. He and Billy have grown their brand exponentially over the last decade. Everyone knows them. The only people whose opinion he'd be changing would be fans that are watching. And even then, their only half paying attention to what is being said.

Do you honestly believe there are companies looking for athletes as spokespersons that are NOW considering Ripken because they heard him do color commentary on TBS and he didn't come off as a Baltimore homer?

Read this article from 2005 and tell me he needs help getting the word out that he can be a player on the national stage.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47969-2005Apr12.html

Relevant excerpt:

The Cal Ripken "brand" is on an $18 million minor league baseball stadium, home to the Ripken-owned Aberdeen, Md., IronBirds, a Class A affiliate of the Baltimore Orioles that plays in the New York-Penn League. Thousands of kids play tournaments each summer or attend the Cal Ripken Experience summer camps and clinics at the 40-acre Cal Ripken campus, which adjoins the minor league stadium.

There's a Cal Ripken Baseball league with 1 million players and an annual Cal Ripken World Series; a Cal Ripken stadium design and market research firm and Cal Ripken speeches starting at $50,000. There's a new Cal Ripken weekly show on XM Satellite Radio, a CD and book titled, "Play Baseball the Ripken Way."

Ripken's popularity allows him to demand from $50,000 to $90,000 for each of the 20 or so speeches he gives every year. The speeches and endorsement deals with sponsors such as Coca-Cola, MBNA America, Radio Shack, Comcast and Nike help shore up the losses from less-developed parts of the business such as the stadium design firm and the camps and clinics. The camps and clinics, including the Ripken Experience, should start posting a profit this year, Ripken said.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 356
  • Created
  • Last Reply
Ha, you are like the big guy in the cartoons that after the smart guy says something, he says, "Yeah!" ;)

BTW, I don't expect some people to get it. It's easier to have their idol then realize the idol may have chinks in his armor. Taking on Cal is not always a popular thing, especially in here or where other fans have their say, but I have enough information outside of my opinion to make me feel confident enough to say so here. I have nothing against Cal for doing this by the way. I don't particularly like what he did and yes, I've lost some respect for him, but at the same time, he has every right to go out and make any business decision he feels is in his best interest.

I'd be lying if I said the pull of money does not effect many decisions for many people, including myself.

Right. I already basically said that. It's posted right below.

Yep, I've talked to so many non-Oriole fans about Cal since that night, and they all say "I never thought Cal had what it takes to be an announcer on a national level UNTIL I heard him say that Beltre was a better defender than Brooks." It was a total black and white situation. Pure evil vs. doing the right thing. I've never seen such selfishness.:rolleyes:

Then what I got from you was typical of your kind of response when someone brings up a good point against you, personal insults. Apparently, I lack loyalty because I didn't think Cal was a traitor.

I think the difference here is that some people enjoy and respect loyalty and others could really care less. You appear to fall in the latter category. Whether Cal believed that Beltre was the best defensive 3rd baseman off all-time (something statistics would tell you otherwise) there is no reason for him to say, "Sorry Brooksie..." then give his ill-informed opinion. Could you imagine Brooks Robinson being asked who redefined the position of shortstop between Cal and Jeter and Brooks saying, "Sorry Cal..."

No, Brooks has enough class and loyalty that he would have found a way to talk around the question, even if he felt Jeter had truly redefined the position. The sad thing, Cal wasn't put on the spot and he doesn't do anything off the cuff. I believe he made the comment on purpose because he knew people outside of Baltimore would go, "Whoa, that Cal is not just a Baltimore shill." Cal could have easily said that, "Beltre was the best defensive third baseman of this generation and among the best ever." Had he said that, none of this would have occurred.

Outside of those statements, Cal made sure to gush all over the Yankees during that telecast and even admitted later that he may have overcompensated. For me, Cal made a corporate call to improve his image as a national guy and did it by throwing a Baltimore icon under the bus and by being biased towards the Yankees. Anyone who thinks this was some offhand comment either doesn't want to look at all the evidence or is just too big of a Cal fan to look at him subjectively.

Cal Ripken the player was somebody I respected and enjoyed watching play and nothing will really tarnish that. His legacy as an Orioles player is cemented in my opinion. Cal's image since his playing days though has been all about Cal and his business and if that means throwing a guy like Brooks under the bus to improve it, so be it.

As Drungo pointed out (although I disagree with his overall assessment of the situation), Cal spent 30 years being conservative about what he said. To think that he suddenly made a mis-comment during a game is really missing the whole picture in my opinion.

I still haven't seen any valid refutation of the point that Cal didn't gain anything from saying what he said. Nobody watching that suddenly changed their mind of Cal from being a Baltimore homer to a respectable national guy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He was the best player on the team. During his career Ripken had the highest WAR on the team seven times, including 1983. Also, Ripken spent his entire career in Baltimore whereas Murray spent 12 1/2 years and F. Robinson only six.

Being the MVP in 83 probably qualifies you as the best guy on the team that year!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tony, I deal with MLB AM a fair amount. I speak to people all over the game, both in ownership, business, and ops. None of them are watching TBS to see whether Cal is really an "O's" guy, or a "national" guy. He's one of the most recognizable names/faces in the game. He and Billy have grown their brand exponentially over the last decade. Everyone knows them. The only people whose opinion he'd be changing would be fans that are watching. And even then, their only half paying attention to what is being said.

Do you honestly believe there are companies looking for athletes as spokespersons that are NOW considering Ripken because they heard him do color commentary on TBS and he didn't come off as a Baltimore homer?

Read this article from 2005 and tell me he needs help getting the word out that he can be a player on the national stage.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47969-2005Apr12.html

Relevant excerpt:

You are missing the point. I know a lot of people on the BALTIMORE area, a lot more than you so perhaps I'm not just pulling this out of my rear. Perhaps all the whispers and hearsay are just people jealous of Cal. ORRRRRR, maybe there is something to corporate Cal. Regardless, we've all had our say and neither are going to convince the other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote name=waroriole;3308313

Then what I got from you was typical of your kind of response when someone brings up a good point against you' date=' personal insults. Apparently, I lack loyalty because I didn't think Cal was a traitor.

Where were the personal insults? Because I said you are like the guy in the cartoon after which I put with a ;) after it? Seriously flower, man up a bit and stop crying that big bad Tony is hurling insults at you. Oh wait, I just called you a delicate flower, I guess that is an insult now. How will you ever get over it? At least you now are correct, I called you a flower who wilts at the slightest back and forth.

I'll just never understand why some people can't have a disagreement without getting all offended. I don't really care if you or Stotle or anyone else disagrees really. I don't think any less of Drungo or Stotle because we disagree on this, but they aren't getting their feathers all ruffled up now are they?

I'm tired of people like you getting offended at the drop of the hat over having a disagreement with me. Guess what, it's just a conversation. We are not always going to agree so stop taking everything so damn personal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jim Palmer is the greatest Oriole of all time. Hes mentioned with the all time elite pitchers of the game. If not for injuries he would have had even better stats. Cal isn't up there as an elite hitter. He was a good hitter who changed the SS position. But when comared to the elite bats, he's not in that class. Palmer is in the elite class of pitchers.

I havent had time to read all of the posts, but I couldnt help myself on commenting on your post. Jim Palmer was a very good pitcher in his era and I will not argue that one bit. However, when you say Cal wasnt an elite hitter, you sound foolish to me. During Cals career, hitting stats werent what they are today. Also, hitting isnt everything. Cal changed the game when it came to the SS position and was proficient in hitting as well. When the topic of best team all time comes up, Cals name always comes up in the conversation for SS. Most players in the recent past arent even mentioned. With your reasoning, Cabrera is the greatest 3B of all time because he is one of the best hitters of all time the last few years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where were the personal insults? Because I said you are like the guy in the cartoon after which I put with a ;) after it? Seriously flower, man up a bit and stop crying that big bad Tony is hurling insults at you. Oh wait, I just called you a delicate flower, I guess that is an insult now. How will you ever get over it? At least you now are correct, I called you a flower who wilts at the slightest back and forth.

I'll just never understand why some people can't have a disagreement without getting all offended. I don't really care if you or Stotle or anyone else disagrees really. I don't think any less of Drungo or Stotle because we disagree on this, but they aren't getting their feathers all ruffled up now are they?

I'm tired of people like you getting offended at the drop of the hat over having a disagreement with me. Guess what, it's just a conversation. We are not always going to agree so stop taking everything so damn personal.

When will you get above acting like this? This is your board and you should hold yourself to a higher standard. Yes there are heated arguments on here, but patronizing people should something you dont participate in. There are better ways to disagree with someone, especially from your position.

You could always just ban me for crossing you, like you have done in the past. But that would go against your "sincere" apology you made earlier this year and your devotion to being a better person and running a better board.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where were the personal insults? Because I said you are like the guy in the cartoon after which I put with a ;) after it? Seriously flower, man up a bit and stop crying that big bad Tony is hurling insults at you. Oh wait, I just called you a delicate flower, I guess that is an insult now. How will you ever get over it? At least you now are correct, I called you a flower who wilts at the slightest back and forth.

I'll just never understand why some people can't have a disagreement without getting all offended. I don't really care if you or Stotle or anyone else disagrees really. I don't think any less of Drungo or Stotle because we disagree on this, but they aren't getting their feathers all ruffled up now are they?

I'm tired of people like you getting offended at the drop of the hat over having a disagreement with me. Guess what, it's just a conversation. We are not always going to agree so stop taking everything so damn personal.

Ha, I wonder if you see the irony here. Every time there's a sharp disagreement over anything, you start getting offended and insulting people. I'm not hurt because you said I must not value loyalty. I just think it's a bogus statement to make. You're trying to get under people's skin because the conversation isn't going your way. I would think the guy who runs the board, and has made a big mea culpa over this before, would leave that crap at home.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are missing the point. I know a lot of people on the BALTIMORE area, a lot more than you so perhaps I'm not just pulling this out of my rear. Perhaps all the whispers and hearsay are just people jealous of Cal. ORRRRRR, maybe there is something to corporate Cal. Regardless, we've all had our say and neither are going to convince the other.

What does this have to do with whether Cal gained anything nationally by saying Beltre was better?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes. Managerial skill is directly represented by single season record. A few years ago Buck was an idiot. Then in four months he became a genius.

Come on. I'm talking about gaining at least some kind of experience before taking the reins of a MLB team. Your injection of Showalter is silly. He had plenty of experience before taking over as a MLB manager. How was he ever an idiot?

Showalter was hired as manager of the Single-A minor league Oneonta Yankees of the New York-Penn League in 1985. In 1987, he became manager of the minor league Fort Lauderdale Yankees. By 1989, Showalter was with the Double-A Albany-Colonie Yankees of the Eastern League.

In 1990 Showalter was promoted to the coaching staff of the New York Yankees, and eventually succeeded Stump Merrill as the team's manager for the 1992 season.

By my count that's 8 years of progressively increasing experience from low ball to the MLB level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Come on. I'm talking about gaining at least some kind of experience before taking the reins of a MLB team. Your injection of Showalter is silly. He had plenty of experience before taking over as a MLB manager. How was he ever an idiot?

Showalter was hired as manager of the Single-A minor league Oneonta Yankees of the New York-Penn League in 1985. In 1987, he became manager of the minor league Fort Lauderdale Yankees. By 1989, Showalter was with the Double-A Albany-Colonie Yankees of the Eastern League.

In 1990 Showalter was promoted to the coaching staff of the New York Yankees, and eventually succeeded Stump Merrill as the team's manager for the 1992 season.

By my count that's 8 years of progressively increasing experience from low ball to the MLB level.

I thought it was interesting that you cite Ventura as an example of how lack of prior experience makes you ineligible to be a good MLB manager, yet Ventura had a winning record and was 3rd in the MOY voting in 2012.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Man I think you guys are over-interpreting the Beltre comment. Not every baseball opinion is some strategic play for building up your "brand."

Yes, probably no significance whatsoever in him comparing Beltre favorably to Brooks, considering baseball fans everywhere (and especially in Baltimore) had thought Brooks was Cal's hero growing up.

Was our thinking wrong? If not, what changed? After all, one doesn't compare someone favorably to their childhood hero without even being asked to make that comparison, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.




  • Posts

    • Cool, nice work there.   So? Are we owed a large market? Does DC not deserve their own team? Should the fans of Baltimore just become Redskins fans and not tried to get their own team when the Colts left?  (sorry to bring up football again but come on, that fits). I laid it all out a couple months ago, MLB has more teams bringing home the hunk of metal than other sports since 2000.  The competitive balance is fine.  It's harder?  Yea?  OK it's harder.
    • The Cowboys have an owner with deep pockets. I agree 100% … There is some cap manipulation that happens. At the end of the day they have a $255 million limit they are required to operate under. The Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, etc can decide each year how much they want to add to the luxury tax fund as opposed to not being able to fit a potential move under the cap. Here are the 2024 payrolls for the NFL and MLB   https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2024/04/03/mlb-team-payrolls-2024-highest-lowest-mets/73139425007/ Highest $305 million vs $60 million  https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/_/year/2024/sort/cap_maximum_space Highest $259.5 million vs $217 million these numbers will likely get tighter once they make additions before the trade deadline.  If you can’t see the difference I’m just wasting my time. The biggest driving force in MLB beyond the ability of some to spend lavishly is the tv markets. The club controls so much of their tv revenue that it’s an unfair game. The moved that created the Orioles didn’t have much of an effect on the Senators tv market which was likely nonexistent then. Plus MLB is allowing contract manipulation like Othani’s contract. Instead of $700 divided by length 10 years, Somehow he only counts as like $46 million which is laughable. Plus they are paying $85 million in luxury tax fees in 2024.    The Orioles were a large market team when the Expos moved to DC. They could afford to spend with the Yankees, Red Sox , and Blue Jays. Could the Orioles afford to pay $85 million in luxury tax fees? Could the Yankees? I know the answer to both.  What grounds ? Who cares ? The impact was astronomical …It made it very difficult to compete in the AL East without tank a thon! It split their tv market in half. Obviously MLB papered over that long enough to get an agreement done.    They turned a large market team into 2 small/mid market teams. The Orioles and Nationals payrolls combined place them only 11th in baseball. Obviously they could afford to spend more. But it’s doubtful either will ever be top 10 for more than a season  or two as they try to hang onto a window.     
    • Thanks for the detailed explanation of all of the issues.  Sounds like a mess.
    • Yeah the amenities are pretty outdated at the yard and they seem to do nothing year over year to improve them. The touchscreens have been banged on to death to the point they barely function, so you can't accurately fill out your order at the kiosks, and they don't have a way for the people behind the counter to ring you up at many of the food places. The sound is low to non-existent in certain sections of the club level, like around 218. Seems like there should be speakers that reach there but they might have been damaged by rain, etc. and they are too lazy to fix them. If you go to a game that's even slightly busy, you will wait forever to get into the bathroom, and the sink will be an absolute mess with no soap or paper towels. It's even worse on the club level where they have one sink that's right by the door. Nearby businesses don't care, either. The Hilton parking garage reeks of decay, pot and human waste. They don't turn on the air circulation fans, even if cars are waiting for an hour and a half to exit from P3, filling up the air with carbon monoxide. They only let you enter the stadium with one 20 oz bottle of water. It's so expensive to buy a drink or water in the stadium, but with all the salty food, 20 oz of water isn't enough, especially on a hot day. Vegetarian food options are poor to none, other than things like chips, fries, hot pretzels and the occasional pizza. Vida Taco is better, but at an inconvenient location for many seats. The doors on the club level are not accessible. They're anti-accessible. Big, heavy doors you have to go through to get to/from the escalators, and big, heavy doors to get to your seats, none of them automatic (or even with the option to be automatic with a button press). Makes it hard to carry food out to your seats even if not handicapped. The furniture in the lounges on the club level seem designed to allow as few people as possible to sit down. Not great when we have so many rain delays during the season. Should put more, smaller chairs in and allow more of the club level ticket holders to have a seat while waiting for thunderstorms to pass. They keep a lot of the entrance/exit gates closed except for playoff/sellout games, which means people have to slowly "mooooo" all the way down Eutaw St to get to parking. They are too cheap to staff all the gates, so they make people exit by the warehouse, even though it would be a lot more convenient for many fans to open all the gates. Taking Light Rail would be super convenient, except that if there's at least 20k fans in attendance, it's common to have to wait 90-120 minutes to be able to board a non-full train heading toward Glen Burnie. A few trains might come by, but they are already full, or fill up fast when folks walk up to the Convention Center stop to pre-empt the folks trying to board at Camden Station. None of the garages in the area are set up to require pre-payment on entry (reservation, or give them your card / digital payment at the entrance till). If they were, emptying out the garage would be very quick, as they wouldn't need to ticket anyone on the way out: if you can't get in without paying, you can always just leave without having to stop and scan your phone or put a ticket in the machine. They shut down the Sports Legends Museum at Camden Station in 2015 because the Maryland Stadium Authority was too greedy. That place was a fun distraction if you were in the area when a game wasn't about to start, like if you show up super early on Opening Day or a playoff day. Superbook's restaurant on Eutaw is a huge downgrade from Dempsey's in terms of menu and service quality. Dempsey's used to be well-staffed, you could reserve a table online, and they had all kinds of great selection for every diet. Superbook seems like just another bar serving the same swill that the rest of the park serves, with extremely minimal and low-quality food. For that matter, most of the food at the stadium is very low quality these days. A lot of things we used to love are made to a lower standard now if they are served at all. These are gripes about the stadium and the area that haven't changed my entire adult life. Going to an O's game requires one to tolerate many small inconveniences and several major inconveniences, any number of which could easily be fixed by the relevant authorities if they gave a damn about the people who pay to come see the team play. You would think a mid-market team would be able to afford to invest in the fan experience. You would think the city and partnering organizations like garages, the Stadium Authority and MTA would at least try to do their part to make the experience enjoyable and free of kinks. You would think they would put some thought into handling the "growing pains" of the fanbase due to recent renewed interest after the dark years. Instead, all we get is the same indifference and the same annoyances year in and year out. The whole area is overdue for a revamp. Not sure if $600 mil will get it done, but at least it's a start. Hopefully they can start to patch up some of the many holes in the fan experience. If you're not going to invest in Burnes, at least make it so paying customers have an easier, more enjoyable time getting to/from the stadium and having some food while we're there.
    • Elias has only been in rebuild mode with the O's so there's not much to speculate on there.  Houston, where he spent his formative years, doesn't seem to like to be on the hook for more than a couple of big long-term contracts at any given time.  I can see that as being Elias' choice as well, albeit with a lower overall cost - Houston runs a big payroll.  But it's all guesswork.  I really don't know. If Elias takes the 2025 payroll to $150 million it will creep up to $200 million or so by 2028 just from keeping the core together.  That's where I start to wonder about sustainability due to market size, economic forces, etc., etc., etc... If it were up to me, I would add a couple of free agents this offseason even if the contracts were longer than ideal and be conservative about extensions elsewhere until the prospects establish themselves a little better.  I think there's a competitive opportunity that the team is already into that's worth exploiting. I think ownership is very happy to have Elias on board and they're not inclined to force him to do anything.  I also think Rubenstein's demonstrated business prowess is great enough to assume that he has had plenty enough time to come to a mutual understanding with Elias as to goals.
    • We need a RH O’hearn…in addition to Westburg. At least 3 batters that will push up the pitch count and cause damage in the top 5 of the lineup.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...