Grantland: Why Is One of Baltimore's Best Starting Pitchers Stuck in the Bullpen?

[Aristotelian]

The Red Sox announcers kept calling it a slider but it looked like a hanging split to me. He threw some decent looking curves before. One was ground double down the line but I think he got a DP on another one.

BTW, Chris Sale threw 71 innings, entirely in relief in 2011. He started in 2012 and threw 192 innings. He seems to have done okay.

Here is the video for anyone who wants to relive the experience. Looks like a slider to me. You can see Caleb's glove drift from inside to right over the plate, then boom. Split would break the other way. Whatever it was, it hung and got crushed. Can't be doing that with a 1-2 count and 2-0 lead.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2015_04_17_balmlb_bosmlb_1&mode=video

[Enjoy Terror]

L

The Red Sox announcers kept calling it a slider but it looked like a hanging split to me. He threw some decent looking curves before. One was ground double down the line but I think he got a DP on another one.

BTW, Chris Sale threw 71 innings, entirely in relief in 2011. He started in 2012 and threw 192 innings. He seems to have done okay.

He's no world beater, but:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/simonal01.shtml?mobile=false

Our very own Alfredo Simon has been yo-yo'd in and out of bullpens and rotations for his entire career and he's doing just fine. These pitchers aren't porcelain dolls.

[Nevermore]

The Red Sox announcers kept calling it a slider but it looked like a hanging split to me. He threw some decent looking curves before. One was ground double down the line but I think he got a DP on another one.

BTW, Chris Sale threw 71 innings, entirely in relief in 2011. He started in 2012 and threw 192 innings. He seems to have done okay.

Exactly. All the panic that having Gausman pitch long relief for a while will somehow ruin his career irretrievably is unwarranted.

[MrOrange82]

L

He's no world beater, but:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/simonal01.shtml?mobile=false

Our very own Alfredo Simon has been yo-yo'd in and out of bullpens and rotations for his entire career and he's doing just fine. These pitchers aren't porcelain dolls.

They're also not homogenous automatons. And this argument has never been about players who might be exceptions to common sense rules.

Then again, if Simon is really the example you want to use, surely there's nothing to the fact that he only got good after he found himself far, far away from Baltimore's baseball people.

[Enjoy Terror]

They're also not homogenous automatons. And this argument has never been about players who might be exceptions to common sense rules.

Then again, if Simon is really the example you want to use, surely there's nothing to the fact that he only got good after he found himself far, far away from Baltimore's baseball people.

No one suggested they are homogenous automatons. In fact, you need to back up your statement about what in your opinion makes Kevin Gausman different from every other MLB-ready prospect pitcher that he specifically needs kid gloves, while many others seem to do okay in similar roles.

If you're trying to further the argument that Gausman will be ruined in Baltimore's bullpen when he should be in the starting rotation, there is nothing in history to suggest those two things are related other than the motivations of impatient armchair GMs.

Alfredo Simon and (in the post I replied to) Chris Sale are real world examples of starting pitchers who spent significant time in the bullpen before starting. Even if you exclude Simon's time out of Baltimore (which for some reason you seem to think is okay to cut out) he still spent two years in the Reds bullpen before two years starting.

[Enjoy Terror]

Here are some other starters in the MLB that have logged more than a season's worth of relief innings:

C.J. Wilson

R.A. Dickey

Ryan Vogelsong

Scott Feldman

Josh Collmenter

Adam Warren

Jeff Samardzija

Jerome Williams

Brandon Morrow

Jason Hammel

Andrew Cashner

Chris Sale

Ross Detwiler

David Huff

Justin Masterson

Hector Noesi

Jason Marquis

Brandon McCarthy

Hector Santiago

Carlos Martinez

David Phelps

Adam Wainwright

Tyson Ross

[CA-ORIOLE]

The Red Sox announcers kept calling it a slider but it looked like a hanging split to me. He threw some decent looking curves before. One was ground double down the line but I think he got a DP on another one.

BTW, Chris Sale threw 71 innings, entirely in relief in 2011. He started in 2012 and threw 192 innings. He seems to have done okay.

You could be right. Kind of unusuaa to throw that to a RHH there though.

[Il BuonO]

Here is the video for anyone who wants to relive the experience. Looks like a slider to me. You can see Caleb's glove drift from inside to right over the plate, then boom. Split would break the other way. Whatever it was, it hung and got crushed. Can't be doing that with a 1-2 count and 2-0 lead.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2015_04_17_balmlb_bosmlb_1&mode=video

What kills me is how people keep saying Joseph's pitch calling is so superior. I clearly saw CU spin on the ball that was hit out. Gausman had thrown at least two FB that Hannigan fouled off that were middle in and he was late on. You don't throw him a pitch that is a work in progress. Bordick made a point of this when Gausman actually came back with a swing and miss on another hitter with the slider/CU.

The pitch to Hannigan should have been a FB low and away, Joseph never set up there and called for the wrong pitch.

[Can_of_corn]

What kills me is how people keep saying Joseph's pitch calling is so superior. I clearly saw CU spin on the ball that was hit out. Gausman had thrown at least two FB that Hannigan fouled off that were middle in and he was late on. You don't throw him a pitch that is a work in progress. Bordick made a point of this when Gausman actually came back with a swing and miss on another hitter with the slider/CU.

The pitch to Hannigan should have been a FB low and away, Joseph never set up there and called for the wrong pitch.

Some posters praise Caleb as a means to further denigrate Matt.

[CA-ORIOLE]

What kills me is how people keep saying Joseph's pitch calling is so superior. I clearly saw CU spin on the ball that was hit out. Gausman had thrown at least two FB that Hannigan fouled off that were middle in and he was late on. You don't throw him a pitch that is a work in progress. Bordick made a point of this when Gausman actually came back with a swing and miss on another hitter with the slider/CU.

The pitch to Hannigan should have been a FB low and away, Joseph never set up there and called for the wrong pitch.

If the point is to develop him at the Ml level, you actually do. No way Joseph wanted that ball where Gausman threw it.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Some posters praise Caleb as a means to further denigrate Matt.

Or point out all the rhetoric we heard for years about his intangibles were vastly overrated.

[Can_of_corn]

Or point all the rhetoric we heard for years bout his intangibles were vastly are overrated

Like pitch framing?

[CA-ORIOLE]

Like pitch framing?

I would call that tangible, but yeah, that's one.

[Il BuonO]

Some posters praise Caleb as a means to further denigrate Matt.

Yeah, I get it. I don't care his framing is better and I like his throwing. End of.

If the point is to develop him at the Ml level, you actually do. No way Joseph wanted that ball where Gausman threw it.

He set up on the middle of the plate. That pitch needs to be buried.

[CA-ORIOLE]

He set up on the middle of the plate. That pitch needs to be buried.

Correct. Where I'd expect him to be set up for a slider or even a curve ball. I doubt Joseph advised told him to hang it up on the inside corner.