Grantland: Why Is One of Baltimore's Best Starting Pitchers Stuck in the Bullpen?

[CA-ORIOLE]

It's a pitch that actually produces more flyballs then groundballs (not good at Camden Yards). I don't care how he grips either. I am just pointing it out because people confuse if it's a splitter or change up.. KG says it's a splitter change. Whatever the hell that means.

This is what I am worried about with KG: http://www.baseballessential.com/news/2015/04/15/kevin-gausman-predictable-bullpen/

He's predictable now because he's basically a Two pitch thrower.

The "split change" is largely semantics, so I agree. That said, splitter, changeup and forkball are often indistinguishable by pitch tracking data and the pitches generally serve the same purpose. In Gausman's case, Brooksbaseball is able to separate "splitter" and his more conventional changeup. Nothing wrong with a couple different looks and he predominately used the splitter last year, but both pitches were effective. I disagree that the splitter (in particular) was not effective or is "not good". Flyballs or groundballs. it was very good last year and I'm not buying it just disappeared this year because of lack of confidence.

Other than that , I essentially have (and have had) the same concerns you do with Gausman (i.e thrower versus pitcher and associated specifics), so I'm not really sure there is much to disagree about.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I don't disagree with you on the long end of it.. but right now.. I am worried about him learning in MLB with a shaky BP already. Can't have him "learning" and "developing" pitching in MLB. It could be bad.

Yes, it could get ugly. I'm just going to defer to the Orioles on this for now. They'll change course of they need to.

[Nevermore]

So Jimenez making one good start after being a disaster last year earned him a spot?

Do you believe that Ubaldo belongs in the bullpen and that Gausman should have his rotation spot? Or, curious, do you believe that Ubaldo is a lost cause and that he should be released?

[Nevermore]

Back to the original subject of this thread, I do not think for a second that having Kevin pitch long relief in the major leagues for a few weeks or months will irretrievably ruin his career. While he is in the pen, Kevin can avail himself to extra coaching, not only on how to pitch out of the pen, but also about pitching in general.

[Nevermore]

I think his mechanics were off last year.

The combo of Martinez and Wallace appears to have worked well with Ubaldo and his mechanics.

The guy has worked hard and so far its working.

I could go with some sort of long polemic, but I won't. I'll just say that :agree:

[BradyBunch]

The "split change" is largely semantics, so I agree. That said, splitter, changeup and forkball are often indistinguishable by pitch tracking data and the pitches generally serve the same purpose. In Gausman's case, Brooksbaseball is able to separate "splitter" and his more conventional changeup. Nothing wrong with a couple different looks and he predominately used the splitter last year, but both pitches were effective. I disagree that the splitter (in particular) was not effective or is "not good". Flyballs or groundballs. it was very good last year and I'm not buying it just disappeared this year because of lack of confidence.

Other than that , I essentially have (and have had) the same concerns you do with Gausman (i.e thrower versus pitcher and associated specifics), so I'm not really sure there is much to disagree about.

No worries. I was just expressing my concerns more in depth. So it what it is. :thumbsup1:

[Nevermore]

The question wasn't about the better ERA between Norris and Jiminez the past couple years, or the better command or the better FB velocity, it was about who has the better "stuff". That is clearly Jiminez. If you really can't really see it, the difference in K rate alone should tell it to you.

Also, Buck and the pitching coaches can observe who has better command of his FB. I mean at the current time, I mean TODAY. Not last year or an agregate of the past 3 years. TODAY, as in "what have you done for us lately?". Who has command of his FB?

[Malike]

Admittedly, I haven't read the entire thread and I'm sure its been said already, but Gausman, right now, is not one of our best starting pitchers.

[Redskins Rick]

Admittedly, I haven't read the entire thread and I'm sure its been said already, but Gausman, right now, is not one of our best starting pitchers.

But, some fans are deep rooted in the believe that he is the best arm on the entire staff, you should hear some of the callers calling into the sports talk shows.

[DrungoHazewood]

So...let me see if I follow the thread. KG isn't in the rotation because the O's are a meritocracy. But Jimenez. His stuff isn't better than others currently in the rotation. But Norris (a.k.a. the epitome of ML mediocrity based on his history). Well, in Buck/the O's development plan we trust. But...nearly every pitcher they've moved through the system since Mussina.

The only theory that makes any sense whatsoever is that 2-3 members of the current rotation are basically auditioning for one possible trade. But then you have to stretch KG back out so that he can fill the vacancy.

Bottom line? I don't see how KG advances his ability to start in the majors by getting scattered, long relief innings from the 'pen. And given the O's...ahem...shaky track record in terms of development, I'd say this has the more of the makings of another botched effort than it does the trimmings of a master plan in action.

Suffice it to say you'd have been beside yourself when Earl put Scott McGregor, Mike Flanagan, Dennis Martinez and others in the pen when they were first up in the majors. Right?

[DrungoHazewood]

Can't have him "learning" and "developing" pitching in MLB. It could be bad.

If you think that all successful major league pitchers/teams only let guys with fully developed arsenals pitch in the majors you have no idea what you're talking about. Everyone learns and develops as they gain major league experience. I think you wouldn't be happy unless the O's just kept everyone in the minors until they were totally dominating, and had used up half the pitches in their arm. I'm not sure who would actually be in the major league rotation, since guys like Matusz, Tillman, Arrieta, Gausman... they wouldn't have even made their debuts until 24 or 25 or later. For most of the recent past 80% of the rotation would have been 32-year-old journeymen placeholders, since God forbid you have an unpolished kid in the rotation.

[MrOrange82]

Suffice it to say you'd have been beside yourself when Earl put Scott McGregor, Mike Flanagan, Dennis Martinez and others in the pen when they were first up in the majors. Right?

Before I answer at-all seriously, I just want to point out that I'm disappointed that people continually invoke things like that as though they have any meaning whatsoever in today's game. Point out that the O's seem to be doing something stupid, and invariably an old(er) person pipes up with: "Oh yeah? Well, back in Earl's day..."

But anyway, out of the pitchers you mentioned, Flanagan was the only one who wasn't a full-time starter in the majors at age 24 (i.e., KG's current age). Also, weirdly, only Dennis Martinez of the pitchers you mentioned went from being a full-time starter in the majors (like KG in his regular season games last season) back to a reliever temporarily (maybe he was tuckered out after throwing 292.2 innings the year before...yep, game hasn't changed at all).

Also, this is fun, guess how many combined innings the pitchers you mentioned spent in the O's minor leagues after their first call-up by the Orioles? Scott McGregor, 17.2...in 1987 (i.e., rehab or something). Flanagan, 69.0 (with 18.0 of those coming at age 33 and beyond...again, rehab, I suppose). Dennis Martinez, 31.1. As for Gausman...well, he's already tallied more than 45 MiL innings since his first call-up...and how many times has he moved from the rotation to the 'pen?

[Herman]

Do you believe that Ubaldo belongs in the bullpen and that Gausman should have his rotation spot? Or, curious, do you believe that Ubaldo is a lost cause and that he should be released?

To be honest I thought it was a bad signing when they made it but I applauded them for actually spending money on a FA and trying. Given Jimenez's track record, I do not think that it is beneficial for the team to have him taking a rotation spot away from a guy that most project to be a #1 or #2 starter. Gausman is much more important to the Orioles short and long term success than Jimenez is. Maybe Jimenez has finally figured out his mechanics in the 9th season and he will end up living up to his contract and help the team win. I hope for the Orioles' sake that he pitches well so he either helps the team win or they can trade him and spend the money more efficiently. However, I am not confident.

The other problem is that the Orioles have done a terrible job of developing pitchers over the last 20 years so who knows how this is going to play out with Gausman. They really really really need Gausman, Bundy and Harvey to work out. Starting pitching is very important and if these guys are effective while on their rookie contracts that gives the team much more flexibility.

[DrungoHazewood]

Before I answer at-all seriously, I just want to point out that I'm disappointed that people continually invoke things like that as though they have any meaning whatsoever in today's game. Point out that the O's seem to be doing something stupid, and invariably an old(er) person pipes up with: "Oh yeah? Well, back in Earl's day..."

But anyway, out of the pitchers you mentioned, Flanagan was the only one who wasn't a full-time starter in the majors at age 24 (i.e., KG's current age). Also, weirdly, only Dennis Martinez of the pitchers you mentioned went from being a full-time starter in the majors (like KG in his regular season games last season) back to a reliever temporarily (maybe he was tuckered out after throwing 292.2 innings the year before...yep, game hasn't changed at all).

Also, this is fun, guess how many combined innings the pitchers you mentioned spent in the O's minor leagues after their first call-up by the Orioles? Scott McGregor, 17.2...in 1987 (i.e., rehab or something). Flanagan, 69.0 (with 18.0 of those coming at age 33 and beyond...again, rehab, I suppose). Dennis Martinez, 31.1. As for Gausman...well, he's already tallied more than 45 MiL innings since his first call-up...and how many times has he moved from the rotation to the 'pen?

I may not be disappointed, but I am curious as to what changes in the game have made the practice of using a young starter in the pen problematic? It does seem that, sometimes, people use "the game has changed" as justification for not doing things without any substantive discussion of why supposed changes in the game have made those practices now counter-productive. To me, the convergence of the starter/reliever roles (i.e. starters now throwing fewer innings, but at max effort, much like the description of a reliever's job) would make a temporary bullpen role more productive than in the past.

[DrungoHazewood]

The other problem is that the Orioles have done a terrible job of developing pitchers over the last 20 years so who knows how this is going to play out. They really really need Gausman, Bundy and Harvey to work out.

Since the Orioles have turned over almost all of the managerial and coaching personnel in the last 10 years, and certainly in the last 20, why do you think that the Orioles' record of developing pitchers from 1995 has any impact on Kevin Gausman today? Shouldn't you more heavily weigh the records of, say, Chris Tillman and Zach Britton and Wei-Yin Chen and Miguel Gonzalez, than those of Rocky Coppinger and Rick Krivda?