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Poor sportsmanship or smart baseball?


SteveA

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I don't know what the baseball "code" is for this type of play. It would be great if someone asked someone like Brooks Robinson if anyone ever did this when he played.

Some have compared this to ARod slapping the ball out of the Boston pitcher's mitt a few years ago. That's completely different. That involves physical contact. (By the way, I never understood why a catcher would be allowed to block the plate and as a consequence, then the runner is allowed to run the catcher over. This isn't football.)

Anyway, I kind of thought Arod's most recent play as more analogous to a fielder deking a runner, except in reverse. I could understand if Arod physically interfered with the fielder by getting in his way, making contact with him or obstructing his vision, but this wasn't the case.

Anyone remember when Alan Wiggins was an Oriole and he was duped at first base? Wiggins was on first base and the pitcher threw over to first. The first baseman then simulated throwing the ball back to the pitcher but actually kept the baseball in his glove. Alan then proceeded to take a lead and the first baseman tagged him out.

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Yeah I think it's pretty classless and it's hardly the same as the hidden ball trick or trapping a line drive or missing a tag, etc.

It is different then some of the example you list above but how is it different from other forms of deception that are applauded when they work? Fielders use deception all the time in an attempt to trick baserunners into making a baserunning mistake. I don't see why one form of deception is any worse than another. I have no problem w/what ARod did.

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I don't like it, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out exactly why. Isn't there a chance for injury with this kind of foolishness? If either Clark or McDonald realize what just happened and try to recover to make the play, they could find themselves in a dangerous situation.

With the hidden ball trick, phantom tags, that sort of thing, then shame on you for not being aware, or for not having your coach make you aware. But this is just cheating. Hell, he might as well as run into Clark so he couldn't catch it. Bush.

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This is the third such action by Arod: the glove incident, slide/elbow into the ribcage incident and now this. Bush league, poor sportsmanship and I can think a few other words that describe these types of actions but can't use them here.

The Yankees are always saying how they are doing what it takes to win but they've always done it with at least some class, now they are losing both at the same time. Can't say I feel sorry for them.:002_sbiggrin:

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I don't see any language like that in the MLB rulebook.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/runner_7.jsp

It's under section 2.00, definition of terms. It's from the definition of "interference". Unfortunately it's a judgment call. If it "happens all the time" like A-Rod described, do you think the Jays' 3B flipped out because he dropped it? I think A-Rod's full of it. It was bush league and goes right along with the slap. I'm sure anyone who played baseball in high school and beyond would agree. You just don't do that.

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I wonder how many folks would join the "ARod is a Jerk" mob if he was making $750k a year and playing for the Brewers?

I'd guess it's about as many as would notice Brian Shouse coming out of a hotel with an escort.

I couldn't care less who he came out of a hotel with and I fail to see what in that picture leads anyone to believe that he was fooling around with that woman. Also I don't necessarily think he's a jerk but I do think what he did was crappy. And I can guarantee that if Howie Clark had been the one running the bases you would still have a three page(and counting)thread on it.

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It is different then some of the example you list above but how is it different from other forms of deception that are applauded when they work? Fielders use deception all the time in an attempt to trick baserunners into making a baserunning mistake. I don't see why one form of deception is any worse than another. I have no problem w/what ARod did.

I fail to see how deking a baserunner out on a flyball is the same as what ARod did. What the fielder does isn't directly effecting the baserunner. The runner has the ability to see the play. When a fielder is trying to make a play on a ball and a baserunner comes up behind mouthing something...they don't have that same luxury.

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I completely disagree with the obtuse notion that says "Hey there's trickery in baseball, it's just part of the game" as if we're slapping an "anything goes" approach to deception. There's an ill-defined boundary in baseball, a collection of things that "you just don't do". All sports have unwritten rules but baseball is the king. The boundary is where actions cross over into the land of "cheap, bush-league crap". And there isn't one rule, there's isn't a clean blanket statement to define that boundary, or as some have done, to pretend it's not there at all. That's the beauty of baseball, nothing's simple - it's all very human and subjective, self-policed with unwritten rules and the payback for breaking them.

What Arod did was bush league crap, and there will be payback someday.

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I fail to see how deking a baserunner out on a flyball is the same as what ARod did. What the fielder does isn't directly effecting the baserunner. The runner has the ability to see the play. When a fielder is trying to make a play on a ball and a baserunner comes up behind mouthing something...they don't have that same luxury.

Sure it is. If an infielder is successful at deceiving a baserunner it has an effect on what that baserunner does. They end up doing something they otherwise would not have. In the same way ARod successfully deceived Clark and it had an effect on what he did.

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I don't like it, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out exactly why. Isn't there a chance for injury with this kind of foolishness? If either Clark or McDonald realize what just happened and try to recover to make the play, they could find themselves in a dangerous situation.
I was thinking this too. If this becomes commonplace, because umps don't do anything about it and it does (apparently) work occasionally, you might have infielders ignoring each other's "I GOT IT!"'s as they both go for the ball and collide.

Seriously, it's against the rules. I posted the rule about interference and the link to the mlb.com rulebook page. If this doesn't count as "confusing" the fielder trying to make a play, I don't know what does. There's no justification for what he did.

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I wonder how many folks would join the "ARod is a Jerk" mob if he was making $750k a year and playing for the Brewers?

I'd guess it's about as many as would notice Brian Shouse coming out of a hotel with an escort.

I didn't use to dislike Rodriguez. I think he gets a bad rap because 1) He makes a ton of money (not his fault) 2) He's a Yankee 3) Yankee fans expect too much of him. Bottom line is he's the best player in the game today and one of the best of all time. I'd been a fan of his, but I've lost a lot of respect for him. It seems he'll do whatever it takes, no matter how right or wrong it may be, to win. The gloveslapping thing was stupid but could be dismissed as him just getting lost in the excitement and not thinking. This is now the second time he's been in the middle of a debate like this, and while this isn't as bad as the glove-slapping, it was done with the same intent. Win no matter what.

I'm not a fan of that attitude myself, and I find myself less of a fan of Rodriguez now. I don't give a damn what team he plays for or how much he makes. It's wrong.

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Sure it is. If an infielder is successful at deceiving a baserunner it has an effect on what that baserunner does. They end up doing something they otherwise would not have. In the same way ARod successfully deceived Clark and it had an effect on what he did.

It's different. Clark was trying to make a play and Rodriguez screwed him up. Deking a runner is just like bluffing in poker. The runner can advance or stay where he is or do whatever he wants to do based on how he sees the situation. It doesn't interfere with his running the bases.

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Deking a runner is just like bluffing in poker. The runner can advance or stay where he is or do whatever he wants to do based on how he sees the situation. It doesn't interfere with his running the bases.

Likewise, Clark could have done whatever he wanted to do, but got tricked into letting it drop. However, because it appears A-Rod's yell was apparently against the interference rules, it shouldn't be allowed. If it weren't against the rules, I wouldn't say it was a bush league move.

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I don't see any language like that in the MLB rulebook.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/runner_7.jsp

Rule 7.08(b) Comment: A runner who is adjudged to have hindered a fielder who is attempting to make a play on a batted ball is out whether it was intentional or not.

If, however, the runner has contact with a legally occupied base when he hinders the fielder, he shall not be called out unless, in the umpire’s judgment, such hindrance, whether it occurs on fair or foul territory, is intentional. If the umpire declares the hindrance intentional, the following penalty shall apply: With less than two out, the umpire shall declare both the runner and batter out. With two out, the umpire shall declare the batter out.

By the letter of the law, I would have to say Stray Rod interfered with the fielder. Either way, he will take a fastball between the numbers at least once this season from the Jays.

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