Poor sportsmanship or smart baseball?

[MP]

FWIW-

Gammons was talking about this play today on ESPN.

He says that there are some things that you just don't do.

One of them is yell "mine" as a baserunner. Another "no-no" that crosses the line would be for a 3B coach to yell "cut" to fool the cut-off man into cutting off a throw to a base/home.

Bottom line: AROD did a cheap, bush-league stunt.

I completely agree with you.

Kinda seems like most people don't recognize that line that you mentioned though. The approach of many here has been "If it helps you win, then it's smart." End of discussion. Like they're flipping through the rulebook, saying "Show me where it says anything about sportsmanship. I don't see that anywhere."

[PDog]

Jim Palmer's take on it:

"It worked, didn't it?" said the three-time Cy Young winner. "You're trying to win, aren't you? The guy's an easy target, come on. I don't know what he yelled, but they are underachieving and you do what you've got to do. Big deal. It's just baseball. What are you going to do next, say, 'I'm sorry, I threw inside. I intimidated you.' ? There are just certain things you do. It's survival of the fittest. He yelled. They're desperate. They're playing like dogs. They need to do something like that. Maybe that's going to turn it around for them like Jason Varitek sticking his catcher's mitt in A-Rod's mouth."

From http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/06/01/did_a_rod_put_foot_in_mouth/

I love Bonds reaction to it:

"Go ask Alex," he said. "Leave me the -- -- out of it. Not my problem."

From http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-spmside0601,0,6794087.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines

[oriole_way]

Good point, but I never thought it's a good justification that just because one rule isn't enforced, another shouldn't be either.

But in this case it's the same rule, for two different situations.

I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other on the play, but if that rule isn't called on the take out slide for whatever reason, then it shouldn't be cited ardently for this play. It comes down to what the umpires think.

Speaking of which, I don't think anyone asked the umpire if he heard Arod and/or what the umpire would have ruled if he had heard Arod.

[MP]

Good article Pdog, I hadn't seen that! Full of good reaction.

"I'm surprised and I think it's bush," said Johnny Pesky. "You don't do that. If the umpire was on the ball, he'd have probably called him out and kicked the guy out of the ballgame. I never heard of such a thing. I'm surprised at A-Rod. He didn't strike me as being that kind of player, but for God sakes, he's done so many bush things this year, I'm a little suspect of him now."

Atta boy, Pesky.

[ScottieBaseball]

When I was 16 playing club baseball, had an opposing baserunner pulled the same stunt A-Rod did, he was getting one in the earhole his very next at-bat.

[oriole_way]

FWIW-

Gammons was talking about this play today on ESPN.

He says that there are some things that you just don't do.

One of them is yell "mine" as a baserunner. Another "no-no" that crosses the line would be for a 3B coach to yell "cut" to fool the cut-off man into cutting off a throw to a base/home.

Bottom line: AROD did a cheap, bush-league stunt.

Why is Peter Gammons an authority? He's a baseball reporter (who has Red Sox ties to boot).

I mentioned this earlier, but I would be interested to hear what a former lifelong 3rd baseman like Brooks Robinson would say about the play.

If Brooks said that nothing like that ever happened when he played and that he doesn't really condone it then that means something.

If not Brooks, then any 3rd baseman who had a long career, whether its George Brett, Mike Schmidt, Doug Decinces, Bill Madlock, Ron Cey etc.

If these guys say that its a bush league play (for whatever reason), then I'd be more inclined to listen.

[NJOriolesFan]

Bottom line is that it is against the rules.

[oriole_way]

Bottom line is that it is against the rules.

What rule?

The same rule that isn't enforced on a take out slide to prevent a double play.

Then why didn't the umps call him out. Nobody has even interviewed an umpire to ask whether it's illegal.

If an ump states that he didn't hear Arod but if he had then he would have ruled the batter out, then fine.

[oriole_way]

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070601/NEWS/706010432/1254

Nothing in the Official Baseball Rules governs what players can say, although the possibility of future retaliation usually sets limits. The Yankees don't face the Blue Jays again until July 16 in New York.

"In a lot of cases, it's an unwritten rule that players respect each other and do what's best for the game," umpire supervisor Rich Garcia said

[oriole_way]

Another umpire's viewpoint:

The crew chief for the umpiring crew at last night's Mets-Giants game, Randy Marsh, said there's no hard rule that bans yelling at an infielder. But he added that it still falls under a discretionary call for umpires to see if there was interference.

From the replay, Marsh did not think interference occurred. "If he was close to him and jolted him, that would be something else," he said. "But it looked like he just ran past him."

http://www.amny.com/sports/baseball/ny-spmside015237911jun01,0,2343320.story?coll=am-homepromo-briefs

[oriole_way]

"He's allowed to say 'I got it. I got it,''' said former Dodgers manager Tommy Lasorda, who recalled a similar play when he was with Triple-A Montreal in the late 1950s or 1960.

"I was coaching first base in Miami - two outs in the top of the ninth inning. We were losing by one run. We had a guy on second base,'' Lasorda recalled. "There was a foul ball. Gene Oliver was going over to catch it. I said, 'I got it! I got it!' He pulled back and the ball dropped. He's screaming at me. And the next pitch a guy hit a home run, and we won the game.''

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/wires/06/01/2010.ap.bba.a.rod.s.antics.0774/

[NJOriolesFan]

What rule?

The same rule that isn't enforced on a take out slide to prevent a double play.

Then why didn't the umps call him out. Nobody has even interviewed an umpire to ask whether it's illegal.

If an ump states that he didn't hear Arod but if he had then he would have ruled the batter out, then fine.

I read it in the New Jersey Star Ledger this morning. I also know you can't fake receiving a throw into a base but they do it all the time. I'll have to look when I get back home and see the paper.

The main part is and "intentional act by a runner.....to hinder, obstruct..... and confuse a fielder attempting to catch a batted ball."

[oriole_way]

I read it in the New Jersey Star Ledger this morning. I also know you can't fake receiving a throw into a base but they do it all the time. I'll have to look when I get back home and see the paper.

The main part is and "intentional act by a runner.....to hinder, obstruct..... and confuse a fielder attempting to catch a batted ball."

Yes, several people have been quoting that rule. But that rule should also prevent a runner from sliding hard into 2nd base to prevent a double play. A take out slide also hinders and obstructs a fielder.

Yet that is allowed, obviously.

Therefore, it doesn't seem like it's a black and white rule issue.

It would help clarify the issue if an umpire came out and stated that what Arod did is clearly illegal and the batter should have been ruled out, but I have not been able to find that type of quote from an umpire. What I have found with regards to umpires views of the play, I posted already.

[oriole_way]

"Are you kidding me?" former Dodger Maury Wills said. "Sometimes I don't know what today's players are thinking. They get mad at every little thing."

During Wills' 14-year career, he heard the same word chanted at him so many times, he thought it was his middle name.

"Every time a grounder was hit to me, somebody on the other team yelled, 'Boot!' " he recalled. "I heard it for years. 'Boot!' 'Boot!' "

http://www.latimes.com/sports/columnists/la-sp-plaschke1jun01,1,5453661.column?page=2&coll=la-news-columns

[ledzepp8]

"Are you kidding me?" former Dodger Maury Wills said. "Sometimes I don't know what today's players are thinking. They get mad at every little thing."

During Wills' 14-year career, he heard the same word chanted at him so many times, he thought it was his middle name.

"Every time a grounder was hit to me, somebody on the other team yelled, 'Boot!' " he recalled. "I heard it for years. 'Boot!' 'Boot!' "

http://www.latimes.com/sports/columnists/la-sp-plaschke1jun01,1,5453661.column?page=2&coll=la-news-columns

Yeah, cause yelling "Boot! Boot!" is the same as yelling something that sounds coincidentally like "Got it" while running up behind the fielder. Glad you cleared that up for us Maury Wills.