Poll: Fireable Offense?

[OFFNY]

Fire Buck? Replace him with whom? Gardenhire? He's the best available at the moment. These fire Buck threads help me understand why Trump is doing so well.

o

I understand your point/sentiment, but fortunately, the OH ballot is in favor of keeping Showalter by a vote of 141-25.

[tntoriole]

That might be true, but I don't want to see this as an argument about team talent. It's not. It's about Buck making bad choices that diminished his team's chances of winning postseason games. Buck didn't lose with his best options on the field (e.g., Britton). He lost with Ubaldo. That's entirely on him, regardless of whether the O's would've been overwhelmed by opposing talent later on.

Of course it is on him. The problem is we are selectively looking at it now from the known of a devastating loss. Many on the board would never have pitched Ubaldo again after he went to the pen. Many would not have pitched O'Day when he came in, or would have not used Hart or Duensing in their situations. All of those turned out to be the right choices. And fans now say, well if Britton came in for two innings to no avail and then later we lost it with Ubaldo out there, they would have been fine with that...well, I have seen this board too long to believe that. Buck took the risk that one of his guys would run into a pitch in the seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh and twelth innings and then he wins the saving his closer strategy. It didn't work, but I am ok with the choices. I might have picked Bundy or Hunter in the 12th over Ubaldo, but I still would have kept Britton for the close. Oh, and once the first hit was made in the 12th I certainly would have changed pitchers.

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[El Gordo]

o

I understand your point/sentiment, but fortunately, the OH ballot is in favor of keeping Showalter by a vote of 141-25.

I'm not sure you understand my sentiment unless you are a Trump supporter, which I doubt.

[El Gordo]

Of course it is on him. The problem is we are selectively looking at it now from the known of a devastating loss. Many on the board would never have pitched Ubaldo again after he went to the pen. Many would not have pitched O'Day when he came in, or would have not used Hart or Duensing in their situations. All of those turned out to be the right choices. And fans now say, well if Britton came in for two innings to no avail and then later we lost it with Ubaldo out there, they would have been fine with that...well, I have seen this board too long to believe that. Buck took the risk that one of his guys would run into a pitch in the seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh and twelth innings and then he wins the saving his closer strategy. It didn't work, but I am ok with the choices. I might have picked Bundy or Hunter in the 12th over Ubaldo, but I still would have kept Britton for the close. Oh, and once the first hit was made in the 12th I certainly would have changed pitchers.

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Bundy and Hunter are both FB pitchers. We needed a GB.

[O's are Legends]

Irony: O's at Tor played the SAME game 7/31 & Buck did it right. 2-2 in 9th, Britton for 9th & 10th. O's won in 12

- Thomas Boswell

[OFFNY]

Fire Buck? Replace him with whom? Gardenhire? He's the best available at the moment. These fire Buck threads help me understand why Trump is doing so well.

o

I understand your point/sentiment, but fortunately, the OH ballot is in favor of keeping Showalter by a vote of 141-25.

I'm not sure you understand my sentiment unless you are a Trump supporter, which I doubt.

I'm not sure you understand my sentiment unless you are a Trump supporter, which I doubt.

o

As an immediate, knee-jerk reaction, I think that that understand your sentiment.

A few posters have started a gazillion threads in regard to firing Showalter.

And I presume that you are comparing that sentiment to Trump supporters because you see them both as foolish and/or short-sighted.

However, the fact is that the overwhelming majority of OH posters do not want Showalter fired, in spite of the plethora of threads that have been started in the past 24 hours calling for his head. And that is not the case with Trump and his supposrters. He (Trump) may or may not win the upcoming Presidential election, but I doubt that he will lose/be outvoted by anywhere near the ratio that the "Fire Buck" group is being outvoted on the OH (84% to 16%.)

[eddie83]

In 2012 Jim Johnson had a disastrous July (15 runs, 13 earned, in 10 IP), but Buck stuck with him. After rebounding in August, Johnson started showing additional signs of wear in September (15 baserunners in 13.1 IP). In the ALDS Johnson imploded in game 1 and took the loss. Buck went back to him in game 3, and Johnson blew another save (O's eventually lost in extras).

In 2014 Darren O'Day scuffled through a miserable September (8 runs, 7 earned, in 9 IP). After two consecutive, 9th inning meltdowns by O'Day in the ALCS, the O's found themselves down 2-0 in the series en route to getting swept.

And this year...? Ubaldo as a reliever over Britton, Hunter, Bundy, etc.

Those are just some of the costliest, Orioles examples of Buck's poor, postseason management. Do I have a suggestion for a replacement? No. Am I happy the O's have been competitive under Buck? Obviously. But I don't think he's the guy to guide the Orioles to a WS win.

Man I can't disagree more about your 2012 and 2014 assessment. In 2012 JJ had a brilliant season. The idea he should have been yanked after a bad Game 1 is preposterous. He got the save in Game 2 but you fail to mention that.

In 2014 Buck used multiple pitchers each game. Game 1 he had already used Miller and Britton had loaded the bases with one out and O'Day got out of the jam. Yes he allowed the winning run the next inning but who else should have pitched?

Game 2 he allowed an infield swinging bunt single and took the loss when Britton was nicked to death. Miller had already pitched that game as well.

I have issues with last night as well but certainly not with 12 or 14.

[DrungoHazewood]

Man I can't disagree more about your 2012 and 2014 assessment. In 2012 JJ had a brilliant season. The idea he should have been yanked after a bad Game 1 is preposterous. He got the save in Game 2 but you fail to mention that.

In 2014 Buck used multiple pitchers each game. Game 1 he had already used Miller and Britton had loaded the bases with one out and O'Day got out of the jam. Yes he allowed the winning run the next inning but who else should have pitched?

Game 2 he allowed an infield swinging bunt single and took the loss when Britton was nicked to death. Miller had already pitched that game as well.

I have issues with last night as well but certainly not with 12 or 14.

One of Buck's primary strengths as a manager, one of the reasons the clubhouse stays together and they'll pull together even when there is little or no reason to, is that he shows faith in his players. He will never knee-jerk a guy out of a role.

That annoys the part of the fanbase who would bench a guy over a single game to no end. That's a feature, not a bug.

[Frobby]

In 2012 Jim Johnson had a disastrous July (15 runs, 13 earned, in 10 IP), but Buck stuck with him. After rebounding in August, Johnson started showing additional signs of wear in September (15 baserunners in 13.1 IP). In the ALDS Johnson imploded in game 1 and took the loss. Buck went back to him in game 3, and Johnson blew another save (O's eventually lost in extras).

I'm sorry, but this is one of the most misleading narratives I have ever read. In 2012, Jim Johnson had one 8-game stretch from July 14-27 where he got shelled (6.1 IP, 13 ER). Before that, he had saved 26 of 27 and had a 1.21 ERA. After that, from July 30 to the end of the season, he saved 21 straight, and posted an 0.36 ERA. And you are pointing to "signs of deterioration" because he allowed 15 baserunners in 13.1 IP in September? That's a WHIP of 1.20, not exactly bad, and his ERA in that span was 0.68. He did not allow a run in his final 11 appearances or a hit in his final three. To suggest that Buck should have pulled him from the closer role because he had a bad outing in Game 1 of the ALCS is preposterous IMO.

Meanwhile, let's see what he did the rest of that series:

Game 2: He pitched a scoreless 9th, allowing no baserunners, to get a 1-run save.

Game 3: He pitched two innings, allowing the game-tying homer in the 9th and pitching a scoreless 10th, allowing no other baserunners.

Game 4: He pitched a scoreless 13th, allowing no baserunners, to get a 1-run save.

Basically, he allowed one baserunner in 4 innings of work. Unfortunately, the one baserunner he allowed was a solo homer that tied the game. But it is not as though he pitched badly in that series after Buck stuck with him following Game 1 (which, by the way, was not a save situation; it was basically the same type of tie game situation where Buck did not use Britton this year, except it was a home game).

In my opinion, it is ridiculous to criticize Buck for going to JJ in save situations in the 2012 ALDS. Every single manager in baseball would have done it.

[Redskins Rick]

One of Buck's primary strengths as a manager, one of the reasons the clubhouse stays together and they'll pull together even when there is little or no reason to, is that he shows faith in his players. He will never knee-jerk a guy out of a role.

That annoys the part of the fanbase who would bench a guy over a single game to no end. That's a feature, not a bug.

Good post, and I couldnt agree more.

[DrungoHazewood]

I'm sorry, but this is one of the most misleading narratives I have ever read. In 2012, Jim Johnson had one 8-game stretch from July 24-27 where he got shelled (6.1 IP, 13 ER). Before that, he had saved 26 of 27 and had a 1.21 ERA. After that, from July 30 to the end of the season, he saved 21 straight, and posted an 0.36 ERA. And you are pointing to "signs of deterioration" because he allowed 15 baserunners in 13.1 IP in September? That's a WHIP of 1.20, not exactly bad, and his ERA in that span was 0.68. He did not allow a run in his final 11 appearances or a hit in his final three. To suggest that Buck should have pulled him from the closer role because he had a bad outing in Game 1 of the ALCS is preposterous IMO.

Meanwhile, let's see what he did the rest of that series:

Game 2: He pitched a scoreless 9th, allowing no baserunners, to get a 1-run save.

Game 3: He pitched two innings, allowing the game-tying homer in the 9th and pitching a scoreless 10th, allowing no other baserunners.

Game 4: He pitched a scoreless 13th, allowing no baserunners, to get a 1-run save.

Basically, he allowed one baserunner in 4 innings of work. Unfortunately, the one baserunner he allowed was a solo homer that tied the game. But it is not as though he pitched badly in that series after Buck stuck with him following Game 1 (which, by the way, was not a save situation; it was basically the same type of tie game situation where Buck did not use Britton this year, except it was a home game).

In my opinion, it is ridiculous to criticize Buck for going to JJ in save situations in the 2012 ALDS. Every single manager in baseball would have done it.

Sorry, your facts don't match up to my anger and disappointment. So the facts must be in error.

[MrOrange82]

Sorry, your facts don't match up to my anger and disappointment. So the facts must be in error.

Oh please...part of the argument is that JJ "only" allowed one baserunner in a game that he blew? In a playoff series the Orioles eventually lost? Maybe hindsight is kinder than I'd typically imagine. How about sticking with JJ through his 9 blown saves in 2013 (along with a smattering of other non-save games in which he took the loss)? Was that a "feature"?

Showalter's postseason record now stands at 9-14. His teams have made it past the division series one time since 1992 (The O's in 2014). Maybe you're a fan of retro fixer-uppers with "original details" and old school "features," but I'd prefer something that wins when it counts and doesn't make tactical errors that accelerate, if not guarantee, losses.

[Frobby]

Oh please...part of the argument is that JJ "only" allowed one baserunner in a game that he blew? In a playoff series the Orioles eventually lost? Maybe hindsight is kinder than I'd typically imagine. How about sticking with JJ through his 9 blown saves in 2013 (along with a smattering of other non-save games in which he took the loss)? Was that a "feature"?

Buck's decision to stick with JJ in 2013 is much more debatable. You are way out there on a limb for 2012 in my book. Of course I don't like the fact that JJ gave up a game-tying homer in Game 3, but to suggest that Buck made any kind of error in using him in that game is preposterous.

[Redskins Rick]

Buck's decision to stick with JJ in 2013 is much more debatable. You are way out there on a limb for 2012 in my book. Of course I don't like the fact that JJ gave up a game-tying homer in Game 3, but to suggest that Buck made any kind of error in using him in that game is preposterous.

What brothers me about the attacks on JJ and other players in history moments like this, is they forget the other team is being payed to play and they are trying hard, too.

[MrOrange82]

At least acknowledge that Frobby totally took your Jim Johnson argument apart and made you look silly.

OK, this basically amounts to the pot calling the kettle a black hole.

Regardless, I remember Johnson looking shaky in Texas (two hits and a walk in one inning), getting shelled in NY, and then giving up a HR in game four that led to another loss. Maybe I never recovered from his July, but I don't recall being comfortable at any point JJ was on the mound in the playoffs that year. 2013 definitely made the memory worse, and I think JJ's 2012 performances absolutely carried over to his souring in 2013, but I was nervous enough before he started blowing regular season games as a matter of habit.