Orioles Officially sign Catcher Welington Castillo

[millertime]

7 hours ago, El Gordo said:

Care to give us some examples of your creativity?

Sure...why not.  (Disclaimer - this list is a list of "potential" creative ideas as you requested.  Also...I'm not suggesting the O's should have done/looked into ALL of these ideas but at least one or a combination of them)...

1. Traded Zach Britton.  As many on here, as well as many media outlets have stated, closer values are sky high right now and Zach Britton was the best closer in baseball last year.  Our bullpen is our strength and although losing Britton would suck, we have plenty of capable arms that couldn't close for us.  In return, we could've gotten at least one major league ready prospect and another highly touted prospect in return (perhaps at positions of need for us).  Simple supply and demand.  Now all the playoff teams with deep farm systems who needed a closer have filled their needs so I view that as a missed opportunity.

2. Made a decision on a catcher.  Either sign Castillo or bring back Wieters.  Neither is going to break the bank but they're playing the same game they always play (where they are trying to use Castillo as leverage to bring Wieters back) and sooner or later, that's gonna backfire on them and they are going to end up with a big question mark at catcher.

3. Been active trades.  We may not have the richest farm system in the world but we do have some decent trade chips.  Players like Jaime Garcia, Taijuan Walker, etc. we're traded when no one probably expected them to be traded but the teams that acquired them were creative and proactive.  I've said this 100 times but Jurickson Profar's name has been thrown out there a few times.  He's a guy I believe the O's should look into.  Not saying he's the only one but as I've stated before, it sure doesn't appear to be Duquette's MO to look into anything except for bargain bin players and aging veterans.

I could list a bunch of other things (as I'm sure you would love me to Gordo) but the bar isn't set high AT ALL in terms of being creative to improve the team when all we've done virtually is taken players in the Rule 5 Draft and signed a few no name players to minor league deals.

[crawjo]

2 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Yeah, Tony, I will call him a dunce but I never said he's destroying interest in baseball.  Like you, I'm happy about the winning seasons we've had lately, I'm not happy about what I perceive as a lack of direction for this team.  DD is a master of the February FA signing and the scrap heap signings for guys that can give this team a jolt.  He's a master of shuffling talent from Norfolk and Bowie up to Baltimore and back.  However, you're right this team needs OBP, better outfield defense and a catcher.  I'd also argue that this team sorely needs some speed.

So if this offseason is starting like any other offseason like you've said, then I'm willing to bet that we'll get the same results.  A low OBP team that is a blast to watch when they're hitting 5 or 6 homers a night and incredibly frustrating on the nights where they're swinging out of their shoes at everything and anything and not making contact.  A team with subpar outfield defense.  Catching used to be a relative strength on this team, now we're looking at it becoming a weakness.  No speed.

I will call him a dunce for kicking the tires on a respectable catcher who could have taken Wieters place.  I wasn't about to get extremely excited about Castillo but he's certainly serviceable and comps well to Wieters in some areas.  Now it doesn't look like he's going to sign here, so what's the next step? Castro?  Avila?  Suzuki?  I can't imagine we're the only schmucks around that have a need at catcher, what's stopping us?  If you think Sisco is the guy for next year, why not just say so and address other needs?  Now instead of a wash at catcher from Wieters to Castillo, we're probably looking at a subpar option and platoon.  Maybe Wieters comes back, maybe Castillo signs eventually but as I've said before, time kills deals.   The more time DD spends dicking around doing whatever he's doing, there's more time for other teams to sign guys that we could get.  That doesn't make me happy, what about you?

There's not a lot of depth in the minors.  While I recognize and am grateful what DD has done to keep this team above .500 and playing meaningful baseball every September I fail to see what the long term plan is, aside from patchwork deals to some decent free agents to keep this team treading water.  There's nothing that has made the payroll leaner, the team younger and locking up homegrown talent like Manny or Schoop.  The market for a stud closer is absolutely ridiculous right now and there's no mention anywhere of trading Britton.  We could maybe solve the outfield defense problem and the catching problem just by trading him and find another closer elsewhere.

Again, this offseason is starting off like any other as you've correctly noted.  So you can get all excited when we sign Chris Carter in late February and add another one dimensional defending, 40 homer, .320 OBP guy while we let another one walk.  I'll call that a dumb move because it doesn't make us better, it just keeps us the same.  

But don't you see that getting Castillo or Wieters would require at least a three-year deal? And that this would block Sisco? I think they should just sign somebody off the scrap heap. Somebody who is a good pitch framer and let him share the job with Joseph until Sisco is ready. 

[Tony-OH]

3 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Yeah, Tony, I will call him a dunce but I never said he's destroying interest in baseball.  Like you, I'm happy about the winning seasons we've had lately, I'm not happy about what I perceive as a lack of direction for this team.  DD is a master of the February FA signing and the scrap heap signings for guys that can give this team a jolt.  He's a master of shuffling talent from Norfolk and Bowie up to Baltimore and back.  However, you're right this team needs OBP, better outfield defense and a catcher.  I'd also argue that this team sorely needs some speed.

So if this offseason is starting like any other offseason like you've said, then I'm willing to bet that we'll get the same results.  A low OBP team that is a blast to watch when they're hitting 5 or 6 homers a night and incredibly frustrating on the nights where they're swinging out of their shoes at everything and anything and not making contact.  A team with subpar outfield defense.  Catching used to be a relative strength on this team, now we're looking at it becoming a weakness.  No speed.

I will call him a dunce for kicking the tires on a respectable catcher who could have taken Wieters place.  I wasn't about to get extremely excited about Castillo but he's certainly serviceable and comps well to Wieters in some areas.  Now it doesn't look like he's going to sign here, so what's the next step? Castro?  Avila?  Suzuki?  I can't imagine we're the only schmucks around that have a need at catcher, what's stopping us?  If you think Sisco is the guy for next year, why not just say so and address other needs?  Now instead of a wash at catcher from Wieters to Castillo, we're probably looking at a subpar option and platoon.  Maybe Wieters comes back, maybe Castillo signs eventually but as I've said before, time kills deals.   The more time DD spends dicking around doing whatever he's doing, there's more time for other teams to sign guys that we could get.  That doesn't make me happy, what about you?

There's not a lot of depth in the minors.  While I recognize and am grateful what DD has done to keep this team above .500 and playing meaningful baseball every September I fail to see what the long term plan is, aside from patchwork deals to some decent free agents to keep this team treading water.  There's nothing that has made the payroll leaner, the team younger and locking up homegrown talent like Manny or Schoop.  The market for a stud closer is absolutely ridiculous right now and there's no mention anywhere of trading Britton.  We could maybe solve the outfield defense problem and the catching problem just by trading him and find another closer elsewhere.

Again, this offseason is starting off like any other as you've correctly noted.  So you can get all excited when we sign Chris Carter in late February and add another one dimensional defending, 40 homer, .320 OBP guy while we let another one walk.  I'll call that a dumb move because it doesn't make us better, it just keeps us the same.  

I disagree with worrying about his "long term" plan. The plan should be to compete every year and that what Duquette has done. He has traded away useful pieces (Erod and Davies) and potential useful pieces in Hader to keep this team competitive, but never moved a Gausman or Bundy type prospect. Only the Davies deal was irrational, and that was because the piece he got in return wasn't a needle mover and the team was a .500 team. You don't give away a cheap controllable starter for a half year rental on a .500 3rd place team.

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of what you said, but I fail to see what makes him a dunce. He's kept the team competitive and has given them a legitimate chance to win a World Series already. Besides, do you think signing Wellington Castillo suddenly makes this team a World Series contender next year? There a lot of moves he still needs to make, and like I say every year, if we are starting spring training and they haven't been addressed I'll voice my concerns then. Not on December 13th.

[Tony-OH]

48 minutes ago, millertime said:

Sure...why not.  (Disclaimer - this list is a list of "potential" creative ideas as you requested.  Also...I'm not suggesting the O's should have done/looked into ALL of these ideas but at least one or a combination of them)...

1. Traded Zach Britton.  As many on here, as well as many media outlets have stated, closer values are sky high right now and Zach Britton was the best closer in baseball last year.  Our bullpen is our strength and although losing Britton would suck, we have plenty of capable arms that couldn't close for us.  In return, we could've gotten at least one major league ready prospect and another highly touted prospect in return (perhaps at positions of need for us).  Simple supply and demand.  Now all the playoff teams with deep farm systems who needed a closer have filled their needs so I view that as a missed opportunity.

2. Made a decision on a catcher.  Either sign Castillo or bring back Wieters.  Neither is going to break the bank but they're playing the same game they always play (where they are trying to use Castillo as leverage to bring Wieters back) and sooner or later, that's gonna backfire on them and they are going to end up with a big question mark at catcher.

3. Been active trades.  We may not have the richest farm system in the world but we do have some decent trade chips.  Players like Jaime Garcia, Taijuan Walker, etc. we're traded when no one probably expected them to be traded but the teams that acquired them were creative and proactive.  I've said this 100 times but Jurickson Profar's name has been thrown out there a few times.  He's a guy I believe the O's should look into.  Not saying he's the only one but as I've stated before, it sure doesn't appear to be Duquette's MO to look into anything except for bargain bin players and aging veterans.

I could list a bunch of other things (as I'm sure you would love me to Gordo) but the bar isn't set high AT ALL in terms of being creative to improve the team when all we've done virtually is taken players in the Rule 5 Draft and signed a few no name players to minor league deals.

1. For who? What team was looking for a closer and was willing to give up a major league ready prospect and another highly touted prospect in return at a position of need for the Orioles? Who becomes your closer then?

2. Why are they the only choices? Why does it need to be done by now? 

3. What makes you think the team hasn't been involved in talks? What do you think it was take to get Profar and are you willing to give those players up?

4. Sure you could list a bunch of other generic statements and general scenarios, but what makes you think they are possible? Why haven't all the other steams been doing the same thing? Duquette has brought in International players from all over the globe, used the Rule 5, made trades (not his strong suit honestly), signed free agents, and acquired guys off waivers. You can certainly build a case for some of those areas being deficient, especially the last few seasons, but saying is not creative is just not right.

Every year the Orioles are chosen by the "experts" to come in 4th or 5th and every year they are playing meaningful baseball in September. Do I agree with all of his moves and would I like to see a splash move that adds OBP to this lineup, absolutely, but saying he isn't creative is hogwash.

[Satyr3206]

2 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

1. For who? What team was looking for a closer and was willing to give up a major league ready prospect and another highly touted prospect in return at a position of need for the Orioles? Who becomes your closer then?

2. Why are they the only choices? Why does it need to be done by now? 

3. What makes you think the team hasn't been involved in talks? What do you think it was take to get Profar and are you willing to give those players up?

4. Sure you could list a bunch of other generic statements and general scenarios, but what makes you think they are possible? Why haven't all the other steams been doing the same thing? Duquette has brought in International players from all over the globe, used the Rule 5, made trades (not his strong suit honestly), signed free agents, and acquired guys off waivers. You can certainly build a case for some of those areas being deficient, especially the last few seasons, but saying is not creative is just not right.

Every year the Orioles are chosen by the "experts" to come in 4th or 5th and every year they are playing meaningful baseball in September. Do I agree with all of his moves and would I like to see a splash move that adds OBP to this lineup, absolutely, but saying he isn't creative is hogwash.

I agree for the most part but I really wish he would be creative trade wise. The O's have a lot of assets they stand to lose if he doesn't.

[El Gordo]

37 minutes ago, Satyr3206 said:

I agree for the most part but I really wish he would be creative trade wise. The O's have a lot of assets they stand to lose if he doesn't.

I liked Brach for Granderson. I still think it could have legs. Mets just need to throw in some cash or a prospect. I doubt PA will let him trade Britton, or any other player who's name he recognizes.

[millertime]

41 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

1. For who? What team was looking for a closer and was willing to give up a major league ready prospect and another highly touted prospect in return at a position of need for the Orioles? Who becomes your closer then?

2. Why are they the only choices? Why does it need to be done by now? 

3. What makes you think the team hasn't been involved in talks? What do you think it was take to get Profar and are you willing to give those players up?

4. Sure you could list a bunch of other generic statements and general scenarios, but what makes you think they are possible? Why haven't all the other steams been doing the same thing? Duquette has brought in International players from all over the globe, used the Rule 5, made trades (not his strong suit honestly), signed free agents, and acquired guys off waivers. You can certainly build a case for some of those areas being deficient, especially the last few seasons, but saying is not creative is just not right.

Every year the Orioles are chosen by the "experts" to come in 4th or 5th and every year they are playing meaningful baseball in September. Do I agree with all of his moves and would I like to see a splash move that adds OBP to this lineup, absolutely, but saying he isn't creative is hogwash.

I'm not stupid enough to get into a back and forth with the Hangout Kingpin.  Lol.  I guess you and I have different ideas of what being creative truly means.  To me, picking up Rule 5 guys, waiver wire claims, bargain bin shopping, bringing in aging veterans, etc. is not creative.  All GMs do that to an extent.  He's been active in regard to International players, yes but not really with any big name International players.  Kim was certainly a nice addition but we never go after the big boys.  I'm aware that the pundits have picked us to finish dead last for the past few years and we've proved them wrong but it is just my "belief/opinion" that Duquette could be more creative.  I mean, given the fact that everyone says he's under certain financial restraints, he HAS to be creative right?

[Roll Tide]

My problem is the team obviously has limited resources unlike some of our division foes.

If moves aren't made to extend our star players early it will be difficult to control the payroll. If we don't trade guys like Manny and Britton that it is very unlikely we extend, under the new system we getting little to nothing in return.

You can't replace Machado's value with a 3-5th round pick.

 

[Moose Milligan]

9 hours ago, crawjo said:

But don't you see that getting Castillo or Wieters would require at least a three-year deal? And that this would block Sisco? I think they should just sign somebody off the scrap heap. Somebody who is a good pitch framer and let him share the job with Joseph until Sisco is ready. 

Yeah, but even if we sign Castillo or Wieters for a 3 year deal and then Sisco becomes ready, we can still trade Castillo or Wieters to open up room for him.  I'm not sure what the market would be for a catcher like that, maybe a couple bullpen arms?  A double-A ball starter that projects to a #2 rotation guy?  I'm not sure, but just because you sign a guy doesn't mean you can't trade him later.  Even if we had to eat some of the contract, Sisco's money would be minimal so you're not paying a ton for the position.  

8 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I disagree with worrying about his "long term" plan. The plan should be to compete every year and that what Duquette has done. He has traded away useful pieces (Erod and Davies) and potential useful pieces in Hader to keep this team competitive, but never moved a Gausman or Bundy type prospect. Only the Davies deal was irrational, and that was because the piece he got in return wasn't a needle mover and the team was a .500 team. You don't give away a cheap controllable starter for a half year rental on a .500 3rd place team.

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of what you said, but I fail to see what makes him a dunce. He's kept the team competitive and has given them a legitimate chance to win a World Series already. Besides, do you think signing Wellington Castillo suddenly makes this team a World Series contender next year? There a lot of moves he still needs to make, and like I say every year, if we are starting spring training and they haven't been addressed I'll voice my concerns then. Not on December 13th.

I agree the plan should be to compete each year, from a 35k foot view.  But I don't think this team is anywhere close to being a true World Series contender and maybe that's where we ultimately disagree.  Maybe if Bundy and Gausman become lights out starters this year we can be, but the offense is too inconsistent, IMO.  Too many long droughts of not scoring because they rely on the longball too much.  And in a playoff series where you're facing a teams best starters, I honestly don't like our chances too much because they can't manufacture a run to save their lives.  After a few years of big bombs and long stretches of silence from the offense, I don't see any plan to get better from an OBP perspective.  Manny and Davis are the only ones in the lineup that have a good separation between their batting average and OBP.  So if the rest of the lineup isn't hitting, we're not scoring.  We did try to get Fowler last year but that ultimately didn't work and I place most of the blame on him for not seeing it through to the end.  

I also agree the Davies deal was bad, he'd definitely be good for the rotation now.  

I don't think signing Wellington Castillo makes us contenders, but my overall point is that if he's dragging his feet on signing a decent FA catcher, how long does it take him to do anything else, how long does it take for him to make a big trade or sign someone that REALLY matters?  Because if we don't sign Castillo or Wieters, then we probably just did get worse at that position, taking a step further away from contention, wouldn't you agree?  Then again, maybe Sisco is the man for 2017 and beyond, I guess we'll find out.

You're right that it's probably a little too early to be voicing concerns on December 13th but it's always frustrating for me to see teams come out of the gates in the offseason swinging, being aggressive and making decisive moves that they think will make their team better.  To me, it symbolizes that those franchises had a plan of attack, they'd been thinking about how they're going to go after what they want for weeks while the O's are sitting on their thumbs looking at Rule 5 guys.  

I'll admit that dunce was probably too strong of a word but I've never liked how this team approaches the offseason.  

[Roll Tide]

6 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Yeah, but even if we sign Castillo or Wieters for a 3 year deal and then Sisco becomes ready, we can still trade Castillo or Wieters to open up room for him.  I'm not sure what the market would be for a catcher like that, maybe a couple bullpen arms?  A double-A ball starter that projects to a #2 rotation guy?  I'm not sure, but just because you sign a guy doesn't mean you can't trade him later.  Even if we had to eat some of the contract, Sisco's money would be minimal so you're not paying a ton for the position.  

I agree the plan should be to compete each year, from a 35k foot view.  But I don't think this team is anywhere close to being a true World Series contender and maybe that's where we ultimately disagree.  Maybe if Bundy and Gausman become lights out starters this year we can be, but the offense is too inconsistent, IMO.  Too many long droughts of not scoring because they rely on the longball too much.  And in a playoff series where you're facing a teams best starters, I honestly don't like our chances too much because they can't manufacture a run to save their lives.  After a few years of big bombs and long stretches of silence from the offense, I don't see any plan to get better from an OBP perspective.  Manny and Davis are the only ones in the lineup that have a good separation between their batting average and OBP.  So if the rest of the lineup isn't hitting, we're not scoring.  We did try to get Fowler last year but that ultimately didn't work and I place most of the blame on him for not seeing it through to the end.  

I also agree the Davies deal was bad, he'd definitely be good for the rotation now.  

I don't think signing Wellington Castillo makes us contenders, but my overall point is that if he's dragging his feet on signing a decent FA catcher, how long does it take him to do anything else, how long does it take for him to make a big trade or sign someone that REALLY matters?  Because if we don't sign Castillo or Wieters, then we probably just did get worse at that position, taking a step further away from contention, wouldn't you agree?  Then again, maybe Sisco is the man for 2017 and beyond, I guess we'll find out.

You're right that it's probably a little too early to be voicing concerns on December 13th but it's always frustrating for me to see teams come out of the gates in the offseason swinging, being aggressive and making decisive moves that they think will make their team better.  To me, it symbolizes that those franchises had a plan of attack, they'd been thinking about how they're going to go after what they want for weeks while the O's are sitting on their thumbs looking at Rule 5 guys.  

I'll admit that dunce was probably too strong of a word but I've never liked how this team approaches the offseason.  

If the Orioles thought Sisco was ready now they wouldn't be negotiating with this guy or Wieters. They were negotiating with this particular guy IMO because Dan viewed him as a bargain because he had been nontendered. 

[Moose Milligan]

1 hour ago, Roll Tide said:

If the Orioles thought Sisco was ready now they wouldn't be negotiating with this guy or Wieters. They were negotiating with this particular guy IMO because Dan viewed him as a bargain because he had been nontendered. 

Alright, fine. 

[Tony-OH]

9 hours ago, millertime said:

I'm not stupid enough to get into a back and forth with the Hangout Kingpin.  Lol.  I guess you and I have different ideas of what being creative truly means.  To me, picking up Rule 5 guys, waiver wire claims, bargain bin shopping, bringing in aging veterans, etc. is not creative.  All GMs do that to an extent.  He's been active in regard to International players, yes but not really with any big name International players.  Kim was certainly a nice addition but we never go after the big boys.  I'm aware that the pundits have picked us to finish dead last for the past few years and we've proved them wrong but it is just my "belief/opinion" that Duquette could be more creative.  I mean, given the fact that everyone says he's under certain financial restraints, he HAS to be creative right?

We're just having a conversation buddy, not a argument, all is good. I can see your frustrations, and trust me when I say that there are times Duquette frustrates me as well, but what I have to remind myself that results are all that matters in the end, and Duquette's results have been pretty darn good while getting outspent by three of the other four teams in the AL East since he got here.

[Tony-OH]

4 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'll admit that dunce was probably too strong of a word but I've never liked how this team approaches the offseason.  

Again, we don't really disagree all that much and I agree with a lot of your evaluations, but I guess I give Duquette the benefit of the doubt because of the results his teams have put up since he's gotten here. His offseason approach can be trying, especially as a fan with limited information on why things are going the way they are, but the one thing I've never heard about Duquette is that he's lazy or not creative. I know you haven't necessarily been saying that, but I know some others have.

Would I like to see more trades that enable the Orioles to trade from their strength (relief pitching) and sure up their deficiencies? Absolutely. But I don't know who is offering what for someone like Brach and if it's not enough, then perhaps Duquette will get more in return if he holds onto him. Say what you want about Duquette, the guy has proven time and time again to be pretty shrewd with the offseason, even if those offseasons don't really start until mid January and later for him.

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

If the Orioles thought Sisco was ready now they wouldn't be negotiating with this guy or Wieters. They were negotiating with this particular guy IMO because Dan viewed him as a bargain because he had been nontendered. 

If Sisco's defense was ready he'd be the Orioles opening day starter next year most likely.

[weams]

18 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

We're just having a conversation buddy, not a argument, all is good. I can see your frustrations, and trust me when I say that there are times Duquette frustrates me as well, but what I have to remind myself that results are all that matters in the end, and Duquette's results have been pretty darn good while getting outspent by three of the other four teams in the AL East since he got here.

Substantially as well. Outspent.