How much was the O's pitching to blame for Wieters poor pitch framing?

[Dark Helmet]

I ask, because I don't know what they use or how they judge this. Bill Ripken just basically said you can't frame pitches if you have guys that can't throw strikes consistently. 

[ArtVanDelay]

Framing is basically "stealing" strikes.  It's when a pitch is outside the zone and the catcher presents it as a strike.  The O's pitching would have almost nothing to do with this.  

[tntoriole]

Part of "framing" success does require that pitchers who miss the zone,  don't miss by much.  If you are 6 inches outside, then throw it down the middle, well, framing doesn't help very much. 

But, I have to tell you, I hate the whole recent focus on "framing."  I have another word for it.  Cheating.   Encouraging a visual illusion to try to make it even harder for umpires to do what they are supposed to do.  It is another reason why eventually umpiring will all be robotic and "framing" will be gone with the wind as a skill set.    

 

[Dark Helmet]

17 minutes ago, ArtVanDelay said:

Framing is basically "stealing" strikes.  It's when a pitch is outside the zone and the catcher presents it as a strike.  The O's pitching would have almost nothing to do with this.  

It seems the pitcher would have to get it close enough to allow a C to do that. So I fail to see how a pitcher has nothing to do with it. I hate the whole pitch framing thing as is.

[Can_of_corn]

10 minutes ago, ArtVanDelay said:

Framing is basically "stealing" strikes.  It's when a pitch is outside the zone and the catcher presents it as a strike.  The O's pitching would have almost nothing to do with this.  

I get where what you are saying but there might a little something to what he is saying.

Certain pitches could be hard to frame due to late movement (Britton's sinker).  It has to be harder to frame a pitch when the pitcher misses his spot by a considerable margin.

Now do I think that explains the decline in Matt's framing metrics?  No.

[ArtVanDelay]

1 minute ago, Dark Helmet said:

It seems the pitcher would have to get it close enough to allow a C to do that. So I fail to see how a pitcher has nothing to do with it. I hate the whole pitch framing thing as is.

Well, yeah.  That's why I said almost nothing to do with it.  They're throwing the pitch but the framing is on the catcher.  Are pitchers throwing a ball intentionally so it can be framed?  Do O's pitchers throw borderline strikes more/less frequently than other MLB staffs?  I don't understand Billy Ripken's argument. 

[Dark Helmet]

14 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I get where what you are saying but there might a little something to what he is saying.

Certain pitches could be hard to frame due to late movement (Britton's sinker).  It has to be harder to frame a pitch when the pitcher misses his spot by a considerable margin.

Now do I think that explains the decline in Matt's framing metrics?  No.

I admit I'm lost on framing metrics. How can it assume it would be called a strike to begin with? Does it assume the umpire will call it a strike? 

[Dark Helmet]

13 minutes ago, ArtVanDelay said:

Well, yeah.  That's why I said almost nothing to do with it.  They're throwing the pitch but the framing is on the catcher.  Are pitchers throwing a ball intentionally so it can be framed?  Do O's pitchers throw borderline strikes more/less frequently than other MLB staffs?  I don't understand Billy Ripken's argument. 

He was saying you can't frame pitches when guys like Ubaldo and Gallardo are constantly missing their spots. How can you frame a pitch you expect in a general area, and it misses it's spot by a foot? 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, ArtVanDelay said:

Well, yeah.  That's why I said almost nothing to do with it.  They're throwing the pitch but the framing is on the catcher.  Are pitchers throwing a ball intentionally so it can be framed?  Do O's pitchers throw borderline strikes more/less frequently than other MLB staffs?  I don't understand Billy Ripken's argument. 

Gosh I'm sorry I don't remember the details but I do remember Fangraphs doing a piece a couple years ago about how a particular pitcher did throw pitches into the strike/ball boundary at the bottom of the strike zone when a particular catcher know for his framing was catching.  Pretty sure the team in question was the Pirates.  That would indicate to me that at least some of the time the pitcher and catcher are working in unison to steal strikes in a particular zone.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Dark Helmet said:

I admit I'm lost on framing metrics. How can it assume it would be called a strike to begin with? Does it assume the umpire will call it a strike? 

They supposedly have a methodology that looks at all the variables. 

I'm not a big fan of the metrics as they stand today.  I think that they can tell the good from the bad but I think they assign too much blame/credit particularly at the extremes.

[Dark Helmet]

Also, what about patient teams like Boston and Toronto? They usually get the close calls due to reputation. Wouldn't that hurt a C?

[ArtVanDelay]

3 minutes ago, Dark Helmet said:

He was saying you can't frame pitches when guys like Ubaldo and Gallardo are constantly missing their spots. How can you frame a pitch you expect in a general area, and it misses it's spot by a foot? 

A pitch like that wouldn't hurt Wieters' framing stats.  It's only for the borderline ones.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Dark Helmet said:

Also, what about patient teams like Boston and Toronto? They usually get the close calls due to reputation. Wouldn't that hurt a C?

I don't think of Toronto as being a patient team.

And there are many things that factor into a pitch being called a ball or strike.

My favorite is that the a pitch is more likely to be called a strike on a 3-0 count than a 0-2 count.

[ArtVanDelay]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Gosh I'm sorry I don't remember the details but I do remember Fangraphs doing a piece a couple years ago about how a particular pitcher did throw pitches into the strike/ball boundary at the bottom of the strike zone when a particular catcher know for his framing was catching.  Pretty sure the team in question was the Pirates.  That would indicate to me that at least some of the time the pitcher and catcher are working in unison to steal strikes in a particular zone.

I figured teams had been trying that with skilled framers but didn't know for sure.

[Dark Helmet]

13 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

They supposedly have a methodology that looks at all the variables. 

I'm not a big fan of the metrics as they stand today.  I think that they can tell the good from the bad but I think they assign too much blame/credit particularly at the extremes.

Thanks for the responses. I'm just trying to understand it.

Matt was great at foul tips. I Think thats going to be a missed asset.