Duquette Future

[MDtransplant757]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Miami, Tampa, Toronto, in that order, could give the O's job a run for its money.

Tampa just has no budget. I haven't heard anything about meddling from ownership. I haven't heard anything bad about Jays ownership. Miami on the other hand.....we'll see what Jeter brings to the table. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, MDtransplant757 said:

Tampa just has no budget. I haven't heard anything about meddling from ownership. I haven't heard anything bad about Jays ownership. Miami on the other hand.....we'll see what Jeter brings to the table. 

Not having a budget isn't an issue?

As for the Jays they are owned by a corporation, some years they spend big some years they are told there is no money to be added for a playoff push. 

[Tony-OH]

20 minutes ago, Cumberbundy said:

It's relevant, time doesn't make it less so, unless you're desperate to defend the indefensible. Your understanding is the we've lost a lot of talent for nothing & Duq gave a cy young award winner away because he mistook his lack of knowledge for actual knowledge. It's my understanding that Harvey & Bundy were injured despite Duqs brilliance. It's my understanding that Bridwell is having a nice year now that he's away from Duqs ignorance. That's history, history of incompetence & the reason we're on the outside looking in. Duq has created more wins for the Cubs & Brewers than he has for us. He's a disaster. History, years of trying to find a single decent starter & a failure to get one. The worst GM in the game. 

You can certainly have reason to be discouraged by some of Duqette's moves, but calling him a disaster is ridiculous. Prior to him arriving, the last time the Orioles won more than 80 games was 1997. During his reign, the Orioles have won more games than any other American League team and have gone to the playoffs in 3 of 5 seasons (probably 3 of 6 after this year). To call him one of the worse GMs in baseball is so over the top it's not even funny.

I have not been a fan of his trading for the most part and he clearly has given away a lot of the home grown pitching that has led us to this shortage of starting pitchers, but he's also found quality players on the scrap heaps and made some trades that have kept his team in the hunt in September in just about every season. Do I think he's perfect, nope, but I think overall he's in a very tough environment and has done some good things to contribute to the success of the team over the last six years.

 

[MDtransplant757]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Not having a budget isn't an issue?

As for the Jays they are owned by a corporation, some years they spend big some years they are told there is no money to be added for a playoff push. 

I thought you meant in terms of ownership being meddlesome. Not having a budget is a massive issue. Rodgers (the Canadian version of comcast) owns the Jays, and they've put a good chunk of $ into this team. I wonder how much they make off of TV rights due to who owns them, how they are broadcasted, etc. 

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, MDtransplant757 said:

I thought you meant in terms of ownership being meddlesome. Not having a budget is a massive issue. Rodgers (the Canadian version of comcast) owns the Jays, and they've put a good chunk of $ into this team. I wonder how much they make off of TV rights due to who owns them, how they are broadcasted, etc. 

A few years ago the Jays were told there was no money for a playoff push.  It happened.  Having a corporation own a team isn't the most stable environment.

[accinfo]

Some information I do have is that Duquette has sold his home in the area recently and has moved from what I am told out of the state.

[Cumberbundy]

7 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

You can certainly have reason to be discouraged by some of Duqette's moves, but calling him a disaster is ridiculous. Prior to him arriving, the last time the Orioles won more than 80 games was 1997. During his reign, the Orioles have won more games than any other American League team and have gone to the playoffs in 3 of 5 seasons (probably 3 of 6 after this year). To call him one of the worse GMs in baseball is so over the top it's not even funny.

I have not been a fan of his trading for the most part and he clearly has given away a lot of the home grown pitching that has led us to this shortage of starting pitchers, but he's also found quality players on the scrap heaps and made some trades that have kept his team in the hunt in September in just about every season. Do I think he's perfect, nope, but I think overall he's in a very tough environment and has done some good things to contribute to the success of the team over the last six years.

 

What did he do to create these wins? He didn't start from scratch. If he had done nothing but make Rule 5 moves, how many more games would we have lost? The fact that we had some fluke years while he was here has been a curse, not a blessing. 

It would be nearly impossible to find a guy who could turn those 11 assets into less. We have no pitching in the system because of him. We have the worst rotation in baseball because of him. He's been incredibly lucky with Joe Saunders & he's gutted our pitching with nothing to show for it.

What are his best moves? Trumbo replacing Cruz was a disaster in terms of WAR - did he draft Mountcastle? If not, that's an awful baseball move with a little more luck. 

He knows he's limited by ownership, how can he possibly justify giving away first round picks for absolute garbage? How can anyone but an O's fan not blame him for losing a future cy young award winner And a good BP arm for Feldman? That sounds like Seinfeld fantasy camp, but it's real life with a GM who is in over his head.

Jake should have succeeded here. Bridwell should be starting here. Hader should be succeeding here. Ed Rod should be our #4 SP. He gave away assets other people acquired to get a few flimsy wins in the immediate while sacrificing the great work done to find those assets with an owner who is a bit heavy handed. I think it's a mistake to credit him for turning guys other people drafted into guys who helped us sneak into a playoff race or 2. He trashed something that was set to succeed long term for what? 

Now we want to add a starter he never should have let go of. He's an absolute disaster but his ineptitude has been masked by one year of an unrepeatable record in 1 run games & a closer he didn't find. He sells low & buys high. He's the reason we are on the outside looking in. A season with an unbelievable record in 1 run games gave him a lot more love than he ever deserved.

Go O's.

 

[Cumberbundy]

31 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Miami, Tampa, Toronto, in that order, could give the O's job a run for its money.

What is going on in Toronto, their GM appears to have freedom to acquire awful contracts than Dan never could. That trade with Miami was insanity, but things may have changed by now. Acquiring Tulo, Donaldson, Josh Johnson, Buehrle, Reyes all through trades bc the owner was willing to pay seems to be a freedom Duq doesn't have but I defer to you. They also have some elite talent from the international market.

[tntoriole]

6 hours ago, spiritof66 said:

I don't know how well Buck or Brady would perform in that role. (I have my doubts about Buck since he's been a strong naysayer on advanced statistics, but maybe he could rely on others' input.) Neither has a track record that gives me confidence he would be successful.

I think the Orioles would have trouble hiring the young assistant GM you describe. That person would need to be comfortable starting his career with a so-so team that has a very weak minor league system, a uniquely small, near-zero investment in international scouting, drafting and development, revenues of around half of two of its divisional rivals (before revenue sharing), an eroding fan base, financial uncertainty due to the MASN case and the prospect of hundreds of millions of dollars in estate taxes, and an owner who makes decisions about long-term contracts, retaining aging players and trades -- and has no qualms about embarrassing you in front of your baseball peers by yanking the rug out from under you after you've negotiated a deal or about letting you take the heat for his ignorant decisions and inaction.

That doesn't sound like a great opportunity to me.

One question I've wondered about, and I'm guessing nobody has an answer to, but I'll ask it anyway. What goes into the decisions that Angelos makes that involve an assessment bout the value of a player or players -- signing Davis, not trading Britton for the packaages that were offered, not making Manny  or Adam available? The eye test, traditional statistics (BA, HR, RBIs, W-L, ERA), more advanced statistics, PR assessment,  what baseball people around him say, gut instincts, a dartboard, astrological charts? 

If I am a young assistant GM, and one of only 30 major league jobs comes available, I am certainly taking it if offered to me.   There are a number of organizations out there if you were to critique them, you would find that they are in similar problems due to poor contracts, bad farm systems, poor development, whatever.  There are only a few of the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Cardinals, Cubs jobs out there in the baseball universe.     Plus, there can be nowhere to go but up...one way of taking a job that is felt to have many challenges is to see it as one. 

[Cumberbundy]

I apologize for being a pain in the butt, the two losses to Ana have gotten the better of my tact & I apologize to those I've been impatient with, unfair to, sarcastic with, or a jerk to. I need to step back! No one deserve to be spoken to with any tude, you guys have treated me incredibly well. 

 

[tntoriole]

1 hour ago, Tryptamine said:

I  can 't speak for the others but I can pretty much guarantee you McLeod wouldn't join the Orioles. He's already had chances to join other teams and turned them down. Those opportunities  also didn't involve dealing with a hands on owner that wont let him spend internationally. As a new GM  you basically get one chance; no top notch Asst GM is going to use their one and only shot on a team they can't even run their own way.

Because we all have our unique fan history with an owner like Angelos, sometimes I think we make the mistake of seeing other organizations as just fantasy scenarios where GMs are given complete autonomy to do whatever comes to their mind.    I don't believe that to be the case with ANY team.   All baseball teams have owners...yes, some are better than others about autonomy for their GMs, but all of them are strong willed, opinionated billionaires with expectations, so I think the idea of any GM just "running it their own way" probably is not the case. 

 And perhaps not in terms of any of the assistant GMs I named, but maybe Mr. Angelos would like to make history by adding the first female GM in MLB to the Orioles legacy.   Of course, none of these may come to fruition, but, still, there are many talented assistant GMs out there who would certainly take the Oriole position if offered. 

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, Cumberbundy said:

What is going on in Toronto, their GM appears to have freedom to acquire awful contracts than Dan never could. That trade with Miami was insanity, but things may have changed by now. Acquiring Tulo, Donaldson, Josh Johnson, Buehrle, Reyes all through trades bc the owner was willing to pay seems to be a freedom Duq doesn't have but I defer to you. They also have some elite talent from the international market.

Like I said a few years ago the funds dried up suddenly when the Jays were playoff contenders (2014?).  They had a bit of a power struggle in the recent past, the whole Duquette thing was pretty much a nightmare for them.

Right now things appear to be going fairly well with them but when ownership is a board of directors things can go sideways quickly.

[Tx Oriole]

53 minutes ago, Cumberbundy said:

It's relevant, time doesn't make it less so, unless you're desperate to defend the indefensible. Your understanding is the we've lost a lot of talent for nothing & Duq gave a cy young award winner away because he mistook his lack of knowledge for actual knowledge. It's my understanding that Harvey & Bundy were injured despite Duqs brilliance. It's my understanding that Bridwell is having a nice year now that he's away from Duqs ignorance. That's history, history of incompetence & the reason we're on the outside looking in. Duq has created more wins for the Cubs & Brewers than he has for us. He's a disaster. History, years of trying to find a single decent starter & a failure to get one. The worst GM in the game. 

Good Grief. Your hatred is showing through. Why was Baltimores pitching piss poor 20 years ago before DD got to Baltimore? Why did Baltimore have 14 years of losing before DD got to Baltimore? Now DD has got a lot of blame. And I am ready for him to go. As for what happened with Jake I don't know all the facts. I don't remember how many chances he got. Now I don't know much about Bridwelll. Like I say DD has a lot of blame to bare. But I don't think he is horrible as you seem to think.

[tntoriole]

40 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

You can certainly have reason to be discouraged by some of Duqette's moves, but calling him a disaster is ridiculous. Prior to him arriving, the last time the Orioles won more than 80 games was 1997. During his reign, the Orioles have won more games than any other American League team and have gone to the playoffs in 3 of 5 seasons (probably 3 of 6 after this year). To call him one of the worse GMs in baseball is so over the top it's not even funny.

I have not been a fan of his trading for the most part and he clearly has given away a lot of the home grown pitching that has led us to this shortage of starting pitchers, but he's also found quality players on the scrap heaps and made some trades that have kept his team in the hunt in September in just about every season. Do I think he's perfect, nope, but I think overall he's in a very tough environment and has done some good things to contribute to the success of the team over the last six years.

 

I agree by and large with this assessment.  I certainly don't see him as "the worst GM", etc.  I do think however that he brought certain strengths that fit well with where the organization was at the time Andy Macphail left.  I really think his skill set would not have worked near as well without the groundwork laid previous to his arrival and with Buck already on board.  And, it is really for that reason that I think it is time to move on to someone who is better suited for the next phase which is very likely going to be a rebuilding, analytic based era as I do not see Dan as the guy for that particular challenge.  I also just have to think that his dalliance with Toronto had to have impacted his relationship with Angelos to some extent and I have had to wonder if and how that affected his overall effectiveness since then. 

[PaulFolk]

1 hour ago, Cumberbundy said:

In my eyes, 30 innings of Miller in a strong pen was never worth 1500 innings of EdRod. In my eyes, it happened and it was awful. It was absolutely atrocious. We had a pen, we weren't that good, we needed to save our assets. It happened and we continue to pay for it. 

Wait, you're saying the 2014 Orioles "weren't that good"? The team that won the AL East by 12 games and had the second-best record in baseball?

I get being upset about trading E-Rod. But let's not pretend that Miller was a poor pickup. He was outstanding, and may have won the ALDS for the Orioles. He shouldn't be included in your list of players that provided no value.