Why you are feeling so down about the Orioles

[Rene88]

49 minutes ago, atomic said:

I am sure there are plenty of managers available. 

Dusty:( Still angry at Nats!

[Tx Oriole]

On 4/13/2018 at 10:59 PM, Tony-OH said:

I don't think people realize how bad that Toronto situation (2014-15 offseason) screwed up everything positive we had going. It caused Duquette to lose a lot of power and created the current situation. 

Think about it. We didn't resign Cruz who was a tremendous influence in the clubhouse, particularly with the Hispanic players, and we really didn't do much that offseason. From what i heard, part of it was the fact that Duquette had lost so much influence with Angelos because of his desire to take the Toronto job. Angelos, and from what I understand Buck, felt Duquette wasn't loyal. 

But let's look at that winter a little closer. We lost not only Cruz, but the best relief pitcher we had (Miller) and Markakis. 

The Orioles basically didn't replace any of them until January 27th when they trade for Travis Snider to be Markakis' replacement. That's about it when it came to any signicant moves.

How do you go from having one of the best teams in baseball to letting three good players go and replace them with Travis Snider? Something was amiss.

Let's jump to 2015. Duquette, in a feable attempt to win (probably to try and regain some influence) trades Zach Davies for Gerardo Parra, mainly because RF was a disaster because they didn't resign Markakis.

Now let's go to the 2015-16 offseason and see where Buck/Brady start to have more influence on moves.  

Wei-Yin Chen granted Free Agency.

Chris Davis granted Free Agency.

Darren O'Day granted Free Agency.

Gerardo Parra granted Free Agency.

Steve Pearce granted Free Agency.

Matt Wieters granted Free Agency.

So after struggling in 2015, the Orioles can't afford to lose Davis and O'day a year after they lost Cruz and Miller (the two guys they should have resigned) especially because they are Buck guys. Duquette reportedly was fine with letting Davis go, but Buck stepped in and ensured he was resigned.

Duquette then takes a chance and thinks he'll get draft pick for Wieters by giving him the 1yr/$16 million, but Wieters/Boros smartly take the one year offer knowing they were not going to get that kind of money coming off the year he had with the injuries.

So now the Orioles are stuck with an expensive Wieters, and give Davis and O'[day the money they should have given Cruz and Miller.

Almost all of this can be traced back to the 2014 offseason and the Toronto situation with Duquette. Basically the Toronto situation was a major cause in the Orioles dysfunctional chain of command situation, why the team is stuck with the Davis contract, and why this team has not even sniffed the same kind of success it had in 2014.

Wow Tony I didn't know any of this. Thank you for this info.

[now]

4 hours ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

I think Miller was set on signing with the Yankees and being their closer.

That being said I wanted the Orioles to at least make an offer for Miller.

 

I guess we could say DD should have known Miller wanted to close for the MFY, so could have made a QO, thus reaped the draft choice?

[tntoriole]

11 minutes ago, now said:

I guess we could say DD should have known Miller wanted to close for the MFY, so could have made a QO, thus reaped the draft choice?

Nope, acquired too late, so we were not allowed to QO Miller. 

[now]

4 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Nope, acquired too late, so we were not allowed to QO Miller. 

Ahh... Thx for clearing that up.

[24fps]

3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think it is easy to shop for quality front office personnel in April.

Not to mention back office and everywhere in between.  

[24fps]

On 4/13/2018 at 10:59 PM, Tony-OH said:

I don't think people realize how bad that Toronto situation (2014-15 offseason) screwed up everything positive we had going. It caused Duquette to lose a lot of power and created the current situation. 

Think about it. We didn't resign Cruz who was a tremendous influence in the clubhouse, particularly with the Hispanic players, and we really didn't do much that offseason. From what i heard, part of it was the fact that Duquette had lost so much influence with Angelos because of his desire to take the Toronto job. Angelos, and from what I understand Buck, felt Duquette wasn't loyal. 

But let's look at that winter a little closer. We lost not only Cruz, but the best relief pitcher we had (Miller) and Markakis. 

The Orioles basically didn't replace any of them until January 27th when they trade for Travis Snider to be Markakis' replacement. That's about it when it came to any signicant moves.

How do you go from having one of the best teams in baseball to letting three good players go and replace them with Travis Snider? Something was amiss.

Let's jump to 2015. Duquette, in a feable attempt to win (probably to try and regain some influence) trades Zach Davies for Gerardo Parra, mainly because RF was a disaster because they didn't resign Markakis.

Now let's go to the 2015-16 offseason and see where Buck/Brady start to have more influence on moves.  

Wei-Yin Chen granted Free Agency.

Chris Davis granted Free Agency.

Darren O'Day granted Free Agency.

Gerardo Parra granted Free Agency.

Steve Pearce granted Free Agency.

Matt Wieters granted Free Agency.

So after struggling in 2015, the Orioles can't afford to lose Davis and O'day a year after they lost Cruz and Miller (the two guys they should have resigned) especially because they are Buck guys. Duquette reportedly was fine with letting Davis go, but Buck stepped in and ensured he was resigned.

Duquette then takes a chance and thinks he'll get draft pick for Wieters by giving him the 1yr/$16 million, but Wieters/Boros smartly take the one year offer knowing they were not going to get that kind of money coming off the year he had with the injuries.

So now the Orioles are stuck with an expensive Wieters, and give Davis and O'[day the money they should have given Cruz and Miller.

Almost all of this can be traced back to the 2014 offseason and the Toronto situation with Duquette. Basically the Toronto situation was a major cause in the Orioles dysfunctional chain of command situation, why the team is stuck with the Davis contract, and why this team has not even sniffed the same kind of success it had in 2014.

IIRC, Cruz - an acknowledged and aging PED abuser - was offered three years by the O's but turned it down for a fourth year and a considerabley higher AAV from the Mariners. 

At the time Markakis had a very serious neck injury requiring surgury with a good chance of it being career-ending.  Nonetheless the O's offered him three years anyway but he chose the Braves because of the fourth year.  Both this and the Cruz situation are understandable outcomes from the player's perspective, but don't support the narrative that the O's, and more to your point Duquette, didn't try to retain key players from the 2014 team.

It was reported (I don't remember by whom, you maybe?) that the FO was divided about offering Wieters the QO.  Unless you have information to the contrary, I have a hard time seeing Duquette in Wieters' camp in that regard.

I have no problem buying the logic that Duquette's dalliance with the Blue Jays undermined his influence with PA and enabled a lot more input from Buck and Brady Anderson.  If your theory is correct then, in my opinion, at least as much focus should be put on why the controversy wasn't ended quickly and conclusively by PA in the first place, and by extension why Buck and Brady were so willing to turn the situation to their advantage given the unexpected success of the 2012-2014 Orioles with Duquette firmly in charge.

I think there's plenty of blame to spread around, but it would be a pity if Duquette gets more than his fair share, or worse ends up the lone scapegoat.

 

[Reboulet'sStache]

The worst part is that we basically got to this point without doing the thing most do to get to this point (sell and rebuild).  We are just bad without the reward for being bad (the picks and acquiring of prospects).  I'm not going to just blame on Buck.  We didn't sell high on guys (JJ) and seemed to be willing to trade draft picks and prospects for marginal returns. 

The complaint, at least from a decent amount of us, even during the good years, was that there didn't seem to be any plan for the next step.  To continue it.  Like they caught something they weren't expecting with the 2012 season and did everything they could to hold onto it and keep it going.  And now it's come back to bite them and both Buck and DD deserve blame for that.

[Ohfan67]

On 4/13/2018 at 10:59 PM, Tony-OH said:

I don't think people realize how bad that Toronto situation (2014-15 offseason) screwed up everything positive we had going. It caused Duquette to lose a lot of power and created the current situation. 

Think about it. We didn't resign Cruz who was a tremendous influence in the clubhouse, particularly with the Hispanic players, and we really didn't do much that offseason. From what i heard, part of it was the fact that Duquette had lost so much influence with Angelos because of his desire to take the Toronto job. Angelos, and from what I understand Buck, felt Duquette wasn't loyal. 

But let's look at that winter a little closer. We lost not only Cruz, but the best relief pitcher we had (Miller) and Markakis. 

The Orioles basically didn't replace any of them until January 27th when they trade for Travis Snider to be Markakis' replacement. That's about it when it came to any signicant moves.

How do you go from having one of the best teams in baseball to letting three good players go and replace them with Travis Snider? Something was amiss.

Let's jump to 2015. Duquette, in a feable attempt to win (probably to try and regain some influence) trades Zach Davies for Gerardo Parra, mainly because RF was a disaster because they didn't resign Markakis.

Now let's go to the 2015-16 offseason and see where Buck/Brady start to have more influence on moves.  

Wei-Yin Chen granted Free Agency.

Chris Davis granted Free Agency.

Darren O'Day granted Free Agency.

Gerardo Parra granted Free Agency.

Steve Pearce granted Free Agency.

Matt Wieters granted Free Agency.

So after struggling in 2015, the Orioles can't afford to lose Davis and O'day a year after they lost Cruz and Miller (the two guys they should have resigned) especially because they are Buck guys. Duquette reportedly was fine with letting Davis go, but Buck stepped in and ensured he was resigned.

Duquette then takes a chance and thinks he'll get draft pick for Wieters by giving him the 1yr/$16 million, but Wieters/Boros smartly take the one year offer knowing they were not going to get that kind of money coming off the year he had with the injuries.

So now the Orioles are stuck with an expensive Wieters, and give Davis and O'[day the money they should have given Cruz and Miller.

Almost all of this can be traced back to the 2014 offseason and the Toronto situation with Duquette. Basically the Toronto situation was a major cause in the Orioles dysfunctional chain of command situation, why the team is stuck with the Davis contract, and why this team has not even sniffed the same kind of success it had in 2014.

If this is true then the Angelos’ are even dumber than I thought. Don’t let him go to Toronto and then cripple your front office by stripping away DD’s authority and spreading it around. Insanely childish. They should have just let him leave. 

[tntoriole]

9 hours ago, 24fps said:

IIRC, Cruz - an acknowledged and aging PED abuser - was offered three years by the O's but turned it down for a fourth year and a considerabley higher AAV from the Mariners. 

At the time Markakis had a very serious neck injury requiring surgury with a good chance of it being career-ending.  Nonetheless the O's offered him three years anyway but he chose the Braves because of the fourth year.  Both this and the Cruz situation are understandable outcomes from the player's perspective, but don't support the narrative that the O's, and more to your point Duquette, didn't try to retain key players from the 2014 team.

It was reported (I don't remember by whom, you maybe?) that the FO was divided about offering Wieters the QO.  Unless you have information to the contrary, I have a hard time seeing Duquette in Wieters' camp in that regard.

I have no problem buying the logic that Duquette's dalliance with the Blue Jays undermined his influence with PA and enabled a lot more input from Buck and Brady Anderson.  If your theory is correct then, in my opinion, at least as much focus should be put on why the controversy wasn't ended quickly and conclusively by PA in the first place, and by extension why Buck and Brady were so willing to turn the situation to their advantage given the unexpected success of the 2012-2014 Orioles with Duquette firmly in charge.

I think there's plenty of blame to spread around, but it would be a pity if Duquette gets more than his fair share, or worse ends up the lone scapegoat.

 

My recollection is that the Orioles did initially offer Nick 4 years but then pulled their offer back when Nick decided to get the partial cervical disc repair (which nobody considered even remotely as career ending)  and Nick was asked if there were other factors in the Orioles decision making and he gave a very strange answer at the time about not knowing who was doing what.  

Yes, but that “acknowledged PED abuser” Nelson Cruz has both outperformed his contract the last three seasons and the miserable alternatives that have been signed and I predict Cruz will do so again this year as we watch Trumbo fiddle with his hamstring instead.   Give me 4 years of the “acknowledged PED” guy which I advocated on this board at the time.  And we would have had no Trumbo. 

Dan was in the office obviously in the winter of 2014 but I believe he was also certainly wanting out.  Was he pushing full petal to the metal every second after we almost made the World Series?  To do anything to get us over the top?  I don’t see any evidence of that at all.  We will never know if he went the extra mile, advocating with a difficult owner and truly pushing for any signings at all those months or did he just mail it in for a little bit, avoiding the conflict during those key months while waiting for the Toronto deal to work out..we don’t know, but I believe the latter.

Either way, this is when the personnel decisions for this organization all really pretty much went south.  No truly good decisions have been made since well before the offseason of 2014.  And Duquette certainly made some of the other bad decisions before and since then including Parra, Travis Snider, Ubaldo, cutting Miggy, etc even if he gets a pass on Davis and Trumbo (though I am not sure he merits a total complete pass there either.)  

I agree that Angelos should have fired him over the Toronto deal but he didn’t.  In his own uniquely dysfunctional way, he kept him here and made him fulfill his contract, and listening more to Brady and Buck in major decisions.  And here we are. 

Hopefully at some point soon we will see new ownership and hopefully then we can get a clean slate...Dan, Buck and Brady all can leave after this season at this point if it were me.  

 

 

 

[weams]

http://www.baltimorebaseball.com/2018/04/16/myriad-orioles-thoughts-cratering-defense-alex-cobbs-mulligan-tillmans-struggles/

[24fps]

12 hours ago, tntoriole said:

My recollection is that the Orioles did initially offer Nick 4 years but then pulled their offer back when Nick decided to get the partial cervical disc repair (which nobody considered even remotely as career ending)  and Nick was asked if there were other factors in the Orioles decision making and he gave a very strange answer at the time about not knowing who was doing what.  

Yes, but that “acknowledged PED abuser” Nelson Cruz has both outperformed his contract the last three seasons and the miserable alternatives that have been signed and I predict Cruz will do so again this year as we watch Trumbo fiddle with his hamstring instead.   Give me 4 years of the “acknowledged PED” guy which I advocated on this board at the time.  And we would have had no Trumbo. 

Dan was in the office obviously in the winter of 2014 but I believe he was also certainly wanting out.  Was he pushing full petal to the metal every second after we almost made the World Series?  To do anything to get us over the top?  I don’t see any evidence of that at all.  We will never know if he went the extra mile, advocating with a difficult owner and truly pushing for any signings at all those months or did he just mail it in for a little bit, avoiding the conflict during those key months while waiting for the Toronto deal to work out..we don’t know, but I believe the latter.

Either way, this is when the personnel decisions for this organization all really pretty much went south.  No truly good decisions have been made since well before the offseason of 2014.  And Duquette certainly made some of the other bad decisions before and since then including Parra, Travis Snider, Ubaldo, cutting Miggy, etc even if he gets a pass on Davis and Trumbo (though I am not sure he merits a total complete pass there either.)  

I agree that Angelos should have fired him over the Toronto deal but he didn’t.  In his own uniquely dysfunctional way, he kept him here and made him fulfill his contract, and listening more to Brady and Buck in major decisions.  And here we are. 

Hopefully at some point soon we will see new ownership and hopefully then we can get a clean slate...Dan, Buck and Brady all can leave after this season at this point if it were me.  

 

 

 

The fact that Markakis was offered even three years under the circumstances still boggles my mind given PA's history with players having known physical issues.  Perhaps no one who published labled ACDF surgery as career-threating, but people like my wife who have the identical condition down to the same disc and spent a year researching options while consulting several specialists along the way are less cavalier about the risks.  Markakis, Reimold and Peyton Manning have all had success with the surgery and good for them, but anyone who thinks the surgery is routine or risk-free hasn't looked into it.

Cruz's contract covers his age 34-38 years at an AAV of $14 million plus.  If you thought that the history of how players age at the MLB level supported the notion that contract would be successful, then you would have been in a distinct minority four years ago.  Was that your argument then?  Most people who wanted Cruz wanted him for three years at most, ideally 2 years with an option given his age.

FWIW I wasn't advocating that PA fire Duquette, only quickly and conclusively end the story at the outset.  Firing Duquette at the time would have been one way of accomplishing that, but with the potential of causing more problems than it solved IMO.  If it were me, I would have simply told DD that he was expected to honor his contract convention be damned, made a public statement to that effect and said no more about it afterward.  I would have done it within 24 hours of the story breaking and the story would have died from lack of oxygen in a couple of days.  

If we are to believe the speculation about the Orioles corporate culture, then I can't imagine a more toxic environment over the long run.  The day PA formally steps aside should be a public holiday in Baltimore if not in every MLB city.

 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, 24fps said:

The fact that Markakis was offered even three years under the circumstances still boggles my mind given PA's history with players having known physical issues.  Perhaps no one who published labled ACDF surgery as career-threating, but people like my wife who have the identical condition down to the same disc and spent a year researching options while consulting several specialists along the way are less cavalier about the risks.  Markakis, Reimold and Peyton Manning have all had success with the surgery and good for them, but anyone who thinks the surgery is routine or risk-free hasn't looked into it.

Cruz's contract covers his age 34-38 years at an AAV of $14 million plus.  If you thought that the history of how players age at the MLB level supported the notion that contract would be successful, then you would have been in a distinct minority four years ago.  Was that your argument then?  Most people who wanted Cruz wanted him for three years at most, ideally 2 years with an option given his age.

FWIW I wasn't advocating that PA fire Duquette, only quickly and conclusively end the story at the outset.  Firing Duquette at the time would have been one way of accomplishing that, but with the potential of causing more problems than it solved IMO.  If it were me, I would have simply told DD that he was expected to honor his contract convention be damned, made a public statement to that effect and said no more about it afterward.  I would have done it within 24 hours of the story breaking and the story would have died from lack of oxygen in a couple of days.  

If we are to believe the speculation about the Orioles corporate culture, then I can't imagine a more toxic environment over the long run.  The day PA formally steps aside should be a public holiday in Baltimore if not in every MLB city.

 

I know Reimold had to have the surgery twice.  I seem to recall Manning also having issues of some sort.

[OsEatAlEast]

I'm late to the party and I haven't read the whole thread yet so bare with me. But my beef with the O's(and most teams in baseball) is that they are pretty much the opposite of the kind of baseball I like to watch.

I like fast contact hitters that play good defense. So baseball in general is pretty unappealing to me at the moment. I began to like baseball in the 80's and those of us that remember know it was a totally different game then. Most guys would walk about as much as they struck out back then. Now the good players usually strike out twice as much as they walk and the bad players being about three times as much with very few exceptions. I mean there are a lot of players that strike out 1 out of every three or four trips to the plate. That's pathetic as far as I'm concerned.

With the formula the O's use now. It feels like we are lucky when we win and feels like there is little hope when we lose. In most of the losses the opposing team looks like they are in cruise control with no real pressure on them. To the point, that brand of baseball just doesn't excite me.

 

[OriolesMagic83]

I'm feeling down because the Orioles are not good at baseball.  I feel better when I realize this farce of a team has been exposed and there will likely be a sale of the players with expiring contracts at the deadline instead of trading 1 or more prospects and "going for it."