Who's most to blame for this mess?

[sportsfan8703]

32 minutes ago, now said:

Oh, you mean for that multitude of runners we have to ever reach third... ?

But I guess their scarcity makes them even more valuable, not to waste... 

Or do you mean for all those runners who are sent without a chance, because it sure beats dying at third?

BTW here's a cool gif of "oriole runner rounding third": 

Well it’s either Bobby Dickerson or Terry Crowley’s fault. 

[spiritof66]

If you ask "Who's to blame?" that's a tough one for me, because in this organization (and I use the term loosely), it's impossible to determine with any certainty who  has been (or is)  responsible for which poor decisions.

But the OP asked who is "most responsible." That one's no contest. It's Peter Angelos. I think Angelos may be, based on team performance, the least successful long-term owner in baseball history. (I may look at that one day.) And yet he has persevere in  believing he knows more than anyone else about how to build a winning team. He's an arrogant, ignorant, obstinate, egomaniacal fool.  But since he's 89 (and perhaps in ill health), I won't insult him. 

 

 

[tntoriole]

I started blaming Dan after the 2014 season. Prior to that he made some good moves that were key.   His decision making that winter, at the very peak of our window, was beyond terrible.   Yes, yes...all the Dan defenders will whine about Potter’s bad ownership handcuffing etc and, yes, it is terrible.  But I believe Dan Duquette agreed with and recommended to ownership not extending Nick, not going for a fourth year and thus not signing Cruz, not overpaying for Andrew Miller, and decided himself for trading for Travis Snider and trading for Parra and for cutting Miggy Gonzalez and decided that Ubaldo was the target in free agency and convinced ownership it was correct and that Gallardo was the right choice and convinced ownership...Davis and Trumbo I put on Angelos and or Brady/Buck ...But I think his interaction with Toronto permanently altered both his job performance and his hope of having any trustful relationship at all with ownership.   Dan gets my vote a bit more than Potter of blame as to the way the roster currently is disastrously constructed. 

[Teddy OBP]

Angelos is the ship’s captain so it’s ultimately on him but the players need to wear this too. We hear a lot of talk but most of them, most of whom are veterans are playing like garbage.

At some point, no matter what your occupation, you need to show up to work and do the job you’ve been paid to do. 

[Aristotelian]

They are all to blame but the buck stops with Peter.

[O's84]

4 hours ago, Yardball85 said:

Yeah, if I remember correctly something like that, and one weird post by someone who blamed a losing streak on Ford, and then the rest of the Hangout just piled on in fun that a fifth outfielder/DH was responsible for a losing streak.

Yeah, it was the kind of joke that if you were there for the progression it was really funny, whereas if you weren't, it was an okay joke.

[LookitsPuck]

Duquette and it’s not even close.

He built this team off of the bullpen and homers since day 1. He got lucky with starting pitching early on. Since then? The starting pitching has been abysmal. The bullpen has faded. And the offense has proven to be feast or famine while the farm system has suffered.

Duquette has been riding the coattails of MacPhails trades. He’s made a few shrewd trades, but since 2014 what has he done? The farm system stinks. The starting pitching has no depth. The offense is 1 dimensional. He’s had 1 foot out the door since 2014.

Angelos has his flaws, but Angelos doesn’t force Duquette to give up draft picks like they’re candy and sign Ubaldo and injured Gallardos. 

[LookitsPuck]

Smart people have been saying for years that Duquette has been sacrificing the future for the current. So when the current absolutely blows people blame Angelos? Yeah, because that makes sense. 

NARRATOR: It doesn’t make sense. 

[LookitsPuck]

8 hours ago, El Gordo said:

This mess is the result of PA placing parameters on his FO that severely limited their ability to build for the future and forced them to play win now at all costs. No International prospects, Davis contract. No trades of players at their peek. Manny, Brach, Britton, etc., no FA TOR signings. 

This is bull.

MacPhail traded how many peak players and built up the system? Bedard? Tejada? How many awesome moves did he make when it was realized how terrible the organization was heading? 

If Duquette can’t convince management, then he’s nothing more than a paper pusher that probably deserved to be blacklisted from baseball to begin with. He needs to be aligned with ownership. If he can’t get buyin then he needs to be canned.

I only blame Angelos for not firing him sooner. And the lack of a proper international plan, of course.

[LookitsPuck]

7 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Did Angelo's veto Britton being traded at the deadline last year? One example. Case closed. The go for it now strategy starts at the top.  Duquette deserves some blame but because the owner has fostered a dysfunctional hiearchy we can't even be sure how much. Anyone who doesn't put PA numerous uno, has their head where the sun don't shine.

Ah, yes. The ole “rumour means reality”. Do we definitively have a. What the trade was for? And b. Did Angelos 100% veto it?

Duquette (and really any GM) doesn’t deserve full autonomy.

Once again, management has to convince ownership. If the trade was on the table and it was meh at best...you don’t take it if you’re ownership. Ownership rarely (if ever) gives management carte blanche. 

I’d gladly blame ownership for the right reasons. But did Duquette not (after 2014):

1. Let Cruz walk

2. Had an affair with the Blue Jays

3. Got caught.

4. Came back and made Travis Snider the crown jewel of the offseason.

Why on Earth would anybody trust this guy?

I blame Angelos for not canning this clown sooner.

[eddie83]

15 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

This is bullshit.

MacPhail traded how many peak players and built up the system? Bedard? Tejada? How many awesome moves did he make when it was realized how terrible the organization was heading? 

If Duquette can’t convince management, then he’s nothing more than a paper pusher that probably deserved to be blacklisted from baseball to begin with. He needs to be aligned with ownership. If he can’t get buyin then he needs to be canned.

I only blame Angelos for not firing him sooner. And the lack of a proper international plan, of course.

My god. I love how people continue to think they can change Angelos. It floors me.  

Andy never tried to win here. You keep ignoring that.  

[eddie83]

2 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

Ah, yes. The ole “rumour means reality”. Do we definitively have a. What the trade was for? And b. Did Angelos 100% veto it?

Duquette (and really any GM) doesn’t deserve full autonomy.

Once again, management has to convince ownership. If the trade was on the table and it was meh at best...you don’t take it if you’re ownership. Ownership rarely (if ever) gives management carte blanche. 

I’d gladly blame ownership for the right reasons. But did Duquette not (after 2014):

1. Let Cruz walk

2. Had an affair with the Blue Jays

3. Got caught.

4. Came back and made Travis Snider the crown jewel of the offseason.

Why on Earth would anybody trust this guy?

How exactly did he let Cruz walk? Enlighten me? 

[LookitsPuck]

1 minute ago, eddie83 said:

My god. I love how people continue to think they can change Angelos. It floors me.  

Andy never tried to win here. You keep ignoring that.  

And that’s my point.

MacPhail convinced Angelos to sell.

When it’s been clear as day since the lackluster crap that was 2015 that this club was on the downswing, Duquette kept pushing the “go for it!” mentality.

At some point, you have to be able to convince ownership. Duquette is a lot of things. He’s never been known as the ownership savvy type.

[LookitsPuck]

3 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

How exactly did he let Cruz walk? Enlighten me? 

He signed Trumbo for nearly the same deal as Cruz, when it was clear as day from any meaningful stats that Cruz was the better player. So why not after 2014 resign Cruz?

Duquette was so wrapped up in leaving for Toronto that he abandoned the club. 

[eddie83]

2 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

And that’s my point.

MacPhail convinced Angelos to sell.

When it’s been clear as day since the lackluster crap that was 2015 that this club was on the downswing, Duquette kept pushing the “go for it!” mentality.

At some point, you have to be able to convince ownership. Duquette is a lot of things. He’s never been known as the ownership savvy type.

This is unreal. 

The Orioles were in their 10th consecutive losing season when Andy was hired. 10th. 

In Dan’s first year they won 93 games and were an eyelash from the ALCS. Made postseason 3 out of 5 years. 

You are trying to compare two entirely different scenarios.  Nobody forces Angelos to do anything. It’s his team. I am amazed that people think they would have been able to change the man. It just amazes me.