Why is Caleb’s Joseph Playing?

[awannabegeek]

I was going to come into this thread and defend him with his pitch framing abilities, but this year his pitch framing numbers kind of suck...

I guess he's just one of "Buck's guys"

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, El_Duderino said:

Probably a good call to give up on someone before 200 at bats. 

Where'd I say I gave up on him?  I was just finding a better way of saying he sucked.  Which he did.  Chance Sisco was not good at baseball for the Orioles in 2018.  You're ripping on Joseph but Sisco was worse in comparison.  What's it say about a young guy like Sisco who's getting outplayed by a veteran like Joseph?

Doesn't mean I don't think he can't get better.  Doesn't mean I want the Orioles to give up on him.  But let's not pretend Sisco got a raw deal or deserves to be here.  Joseph and Wynns are better right now.

Would love to hear your logical reason that's not based on emotion.

[Luke-OH]

32 minutes ago, Legend_Of_Joey said:

No problem, he has been a great Rule 5 Minor League pickup.

I'll have to look into the Oregon State catcher (or, realistically, read @Luke-OH's report next year..)

Stuart Levy and Daniel Fajardo seemed like good future options but took huge steps back this year. Need to see more of Cody Roberts, who they drafted this year.

Roberts is interesting if he can fix his swing. He didn't really hit in college but it appears more like a case of poor mechanics than lack of tools. It'll be something to watch, full season ball next year will be telling.

Carrillo could be a Wynns type eventually, but not much upside. Lizaragga is a guy with a compact little swing, doesn't strike out much, great caught stealing numbers. 

But those two are both realistically just org players.

The catcher depth in the org is very poor.

Roberts is a FV 35, same with Wynns (you could argue 40), Cervenka is maybe a 35. With Sisco graduating, Cumberland is the best catching prospect at this point, and he's far from a sure thing.

Rutschman is a guy with plus bat to ball, great approach, hits to all fields. The biggest question in his game is whether he's going to hit for power with a wood bat, his type of spraying line drives approach usually works better in the college game. But that's not a big problem, he's going to hit enough gaps to hit enough for a catcher regardless. 

 

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Luke-OH said:

Rutschman is a guy with plus bat to ball, great approach, hits to all fields. The biggest question in his game is whether he's going to hit for power with a wood bat, his type of spraying line drives approach usually works better in the college game. But that's not a big problem, he's going to hit enough gaps to hit enough for a catcher regardless. 

 

The thing that gives me hope about him is that he quit football to focus on baseball full time and his numbers took off.  He'll have to have another good season for sure but he's shown that dedicating himself to baseball paid big dividends for him this year.  Makes me think there's a very high upside.

[Luke-OH]

Just now, Moose Milligan said:

The thing that gives me hope about him is that he quit football to focus on baseball full time and his numbers took off.  He'll have to have another good season for sure but he's shown that dedicating himself to baseball paid big dividends for him this year.  Makes me think there's a very high upside.

Yeah, if he hits for power with wood, the sky is the limit.

SSS but he leads the US Collegiate National Team in BA, OPB, and SLG through his first 9 games. 

[atomic]

6 hours ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

This topic came up last night on 105.7 and it was insinuated that there is something to this.

And that Buck having his favorites had caused a divide in the locker room.

 

They should have fired Buck in April to see if a change in manager could have helped.   Teams usually try a new manager before blowing up their entire team.  

[sevastras]

15 minutes ago, Luke-OH said:

Rutschman is a guy with plus bat to ball, great approach, hits to all fields. The biggest question in his game is whether he's going to hit for power with a wood bat, his type of spraying line drives approach usually works better in the college game. But that's not a big problem, he's going to hit enough gaps to hit enough for a catcher regardless. 

 

You don’t use the number one overall pick to draft a catcher.  Period.  End of story. 

A perennial all star catcher is worth less than a perennial all star short stop.   I’m not advocating Whitt jr at this point, but the people on the Rutschman bandwagon are not seeing it for what he is. A catcher that can hit that will eventually be your future first baseman. Maybe he will be the next switch hitting Jesus for you guys. I prefer third baseman to be your future first. You end up with a higher value over the course of the career. I am 100% for drafting for the best talent over need(need ss and catcher so that doesn’t matter) but if it is a toss up, I’m going for a premier position first. 

[sevastras]

6 minutes ago, atomic said:

They should have fired Buck in April to see if a change in manager could have helped.   Teams usually try a new manager before blowing up their entire team.  

There were those of us that said it should have been blown up after the 2016 season. You can probably find a poll on here somewhere from winter 2016-2017. The way the team was structured, it didn’t matter who was managing. It was coming to a head. 

[El_Duderino]

52 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Where'd I say I gave up on him?  I was just finding a better way of saying he sucked.  Which he did.  Chance Sisco was not good at baseball for the Orioles in 2018.  You're ripping on Joseph but Sisco was worse in comparison.  What's it say about a young guy like Sisco who's getting outplayed by a veteran like Joseph?

Doesn't mean I don't think he can't get better.  Doesn't mean I want the Orioles to give up on him.  But let's not pretend Sisco got a raw deal or deserves to be here.  Joseph and Wynns are better right now.

Would love to hear your logical reason that's not based on emotion.

Huh? Sisco is a rookie  - it’s normal to struggle. Look at Trouts first cup of coffee. I’m sure Joseph is a swell guy, but he has no place on this roster. How is that even debatable?

[OriolesMagic83]

10 minutes ago, sevastras said:

You don’t use the number one overall pick to draft a catcher.  Period.  End of story. 

A perennial all star catcher is worth less than a perennial all star short stop.   I’m not advocating Whitt jr at this point, but the people on the Rutschman bandwagon are not seeing it for what he is. A catcher that can hit that will eventually be your future first baseman. Maybe he will be the next switch hitting Jesus for you guys. I prefer third baseman to be your future first. You end up with a higher value over the course of the career. I am 100% for drafting for the best talent over need(need ss and catcher so that doesn’t matter) but if it is a toss up, I’m going for a premier position first. 

Wasn't BJ Surhoff the #1 pick as a catcher?

 

[Luke-OH]

12 minutes ago, sevastras said:

You don’t use the number one overall pick to draft a catcher.  Period.  End of story. 

A perennial all star catcher is worth less than a perennial all star short stop.   I’m not advocating Whitt jr at this point, but the people on the Rutschman bandwagon are not seeing it for what he is. A catcher that can hit that will eventually be your future first baseman. Maybe he will be the next switch hitting Jesus for you guys. I prefer third baseman to be your future first. You end up with a higher value over the course of the career. I am 100% for drafting for the best talent over need(need ss and catcher so that doesn’t matter) but if it is a toss up, I’m going for a premier position first. 

I wasn't arguing for him as the 1.1 pick, it's way too far away to really project that, but he's going to be a top name. I like him better than Bart and he's a year younger. 

But to play devil's advocate, while highly drafted catchers are rare, there have been 11 catchers taken in the top 10 picks in the 21st century.

fWAR

48.8 active

-.9

17.6 active

10.5 active

0

39.1 active

0 active

6.8 active (27 yo)

5.8 active (25 yo)

Top 100 prospect (23 yo)

Top 100 prospect (21 yo)

That's a pretty good record of success on those picks. 

 

 

[sevastras]

38 minutes ago, Luke-OH said:

I wasn't arguing for him as the 1.1 pick, it's way too far away to really project that, but he's going to be a top name. I like him better than Bart and he's a year younger. 

But to play devil's advocate, while highly drafted catchers are rare, there have been 11 catchers taken in the top 10 picks in the 21st century.

fWAR

48.8 active

-.9

17.6 active

10.5 active

0

39.1 active

0 active

6.8 active (27 yo)

5.8 active (25 yo)

Top 100 prospect (23 yo)

Top 100 prospect (21 yo)

That's a pretty good record of success on those picks. 

 

 

I understand where you are coming from. But if I am the gm, I would look at catcher value in the 3-5 rounds. I don’t care what kind of “stud” you have in the first two rounds. The longevity and having to move them off the position is what kills the value. You don’t have an elite hitter playing c simply because the athleticism for elite hitters translates into being able to play more valued positions. Ivan Rodriguez, mike piazza, they were great, for their position. I would argue and you probably would too, that I would rather have a JJ hardy than a wieters. 

[sevastras]

Although half the posters here will not admit the Wieters was the switch hitting Jesus that was going to save the franchise. I would take a career of JJ over posey and posey is what we all hoped wieters would be. 

[Luke-OH]

14 minutes ago, sevastras said:

Although half the posters here will not admit the Wieters was the switch hitting Jesus that was going to save the franchise. I would take a career of JJ over posey and posey is what we all hoped wieters would be. 

Huh?

32.8 fWAR (34.2 bWAR)for Posey vs 17.5 fWAR (16.5 bWAR) for Hardy over the years of team control.

 

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

1 hour ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Wasn't BJ Surhoff the #1 pick as a catcher?