Assume that Duquette stays...

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

@wildcard @big_sparxx I'm assuming the playoff teams he oversaw and the pieces he added to them don't do anything for you in terms of good will?  My, how quickly we forget.

@wildcard you've really got an axe to grind.  DD is the one GM who's built a winning club here under Angelos since Gillick was here.  He's the one GM that might not have prevented ownership from doing dumb stuff 100% but he found a way to make it work for years.

 

 I agree with you that Dan working with Buck was an effective force in turning around the Orioles.  It worked well for 2012 to 2014.  But a series of bad decisions from 2014 to the present have had impacts that have cost the O's dearly.

Feb 2014;  Sign Jimenez to a four year deal that cost a first round draft choice

2014-2015 offseason:  Dan moves to entertain a bid from the Blue Jay cost him influence with the Peter Angelos.   This caused  Peter to listen to others more than Dan.

2016 : Extending Davis for 7 years.   I could see 5 years but 7 was way too much.   The owner should have been talked out of this 7 year contract  by a trusted GM but Dan was not in that position because of what he did earlier.

2016:  Signing Gallardo that cost the O's a first round draft choice.

2017:  Signing of Trumbo to a 3 year deal.   It was evident that Trumbo was not a good defensive right fielder and that he didn't hit as well as a DH prior to the signing but Dan was not in a position to persuade the owner from not making the signing.   

July 2018:  The Gausman trade was terrible.   With limited trade chips to get high value prospects back, this decision just lengthen the rebuild.   They already had 5.75m in slot money to sign Mesa.   Probably more than anyone else.

So in my opinion Dan did well for this first two years with the O's but a series of bad decisions and loss of confidence in him by the owner due to Dan's actions has made more bad happen over the last few years than good.  

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, Redskins Rick said:

I think you are so far from realistic, its crazy.

Persuasively advise him?

And Rizzo persuasively advised the Lerners????

 

He probably has.

[drjohnnyfeva]

Given the dysfunction that has engulfed this system, anything short of complete control of baseball operations for whoever the GM is would be unacceptable.  Ownership sets the spending parameters and then they are out.  For me, that's the way it should work.  DD, or whoever should have the power to hire and fire who he sees fit.  That includes anyone presently in the system - - - (even severing Brady from team responsibilities), from the front office to the farm.  I just don't think that our ownership is able to release the reins or that they even want to necessarily.  So I expect any plan to take longer than whatever stated time frame has been mentioned because the only thing we know about this organization is this:  our owners meddle in the proper management of baseball operations.

I say 5 years is fair for DD.  Perhaps 3 with options on more... if there is such a thing.  But first, the total money for spending from top to bottom needs to be established, the GM gets to work, and ownership needs to go to Miami for a several year vacation whilst the GM runs the show.  

[Redskins Rick]

Just now, drjohnnyfeva said:

Given the dysfunction that has engulfed this system, anything short of complete control of baseball operations for whoever the GM is would be unacceptable.  Ownership sets the spending parameters and then they are out.  For me, that's the way it should work.  DD, or whoever should have the power to hire and fire who he sees fit.  That includes anyone presently in the system - - - (even severing Brady from team responsibilities), from the front office to the farm.  I just don't think that our ownership is able to release the reins or that they even want to necessarily.  So I expect any plan to take longer than whatever stated time frame has been mentioned because the only thing we know about this organization is this:  our owners meddle in the proper management of baseball operations.

I say 5 years is fair for DD.  Perhaps 3 with options on more... if there is such a thing.  But first, the total money for spending from top to bottom needs to be established, the GM gets to work, and ownership needs to go to Miami for a several year vacation whilst the GM runs the show.  

I believe Peter has stepped down and letting the boys run things now.

Peter would have never authorized the firesale.

[drjohnnyfeva]

Just now, Redskins Rick said:

I believe Peter has stepped down and letting the boys run things now.

Peter would have never authorized the firesale.

The point is, when they are involved there is no true organizational structure.  They need to hand over the reins and watch what happens from a great distance despite their impulses that they can "help."  They haven't so far.  In fact, they've hindered it with no international presence (and it still remains to be seen whether they really are committed to that or not), scouting, player development...   I will believe the boys are different when I see it.  Not just by being told they they intend to do things differently.  DD or whoever the GM is deserves to run their show within whatever the agreed upon monetary stipulations are.  The GM is the first and last voice after that.  Anything short of that and the tea leaves say we get continued dysfunction.

[Moose Milligan]

40 minutes ago, wildcard said:

 I agree with you that Dan working with Buck was an effective force in turning around the Orioles.  It worked well for 2012 to 2014.  But a series of bad decisions from 2014 to the present have had impacts that have cost the O's dearly.

Feb 2014;  Sign Jimenez to a four year deal that cost a first round draft choice

2014-2015 offseason:  Dan moves to entertain a bid from the Blue Jay cost him influence with the Peter Angelos.   This caused  Peter to listen to others more than Dan.

2016 : Extending Davis for 7 years.   I could see 5 years but 7 was way too much.   The owner should have been talked out of this 7 year contract  by a trusted GM but Dan was not in that position because of what he did earlier.

2016:  Signing Gallardo that cost the O's a first round draft choice.

2017:  Signing of Trumbo to a 3 year deal.   It was evident that Trumbo was not a good defensive right fielder and that he didn't hit as well as a DH prior to the signing but Dan was not in a position to persuade the owner from not making the signing.   

July 2018:  The Gausman trade was terrible.   With limited trade chips to get high value prospects back, this decision just lengthen the rebuild.   They already had 5.75m in slot money to sign Mesa.   Probably more than anyone else.

So in my opinion Dan did well for this first two years with the O's but a series of bad decisions and loss of confidence in him by the owner due to Dan's actions has made more bad happen over the last few years than good.  

The stuff in bold is highly speculative.  You don't know that for sure (neither do I).  It's extremely hypothetical and not really based on any facts.  You don't know who had Fat Pete's ear and who didn't.  Maybe DD wanted Trumbo and Davis, maybe he didn't.  Who knows?

 

 

[AnythingO's]

Wildcard, I don't want to get into an argument but your post above about all the poor decisions since 2014 is beneath you. Roy has told us Buck "insisted" on extending both Davis and Trumbo and Buck had a direct line to PA. I will go to my grave believing Dan wanted no part of either but was directed to do so. Mike Rogers of Rogers Communications asked his NYY exec buddy for recommendation for Toronto's Exec Dir of baseball operations. Rogers approached Dan, Dan reported to PA, PA neutered him. You say it was a result of Dan's actions but all we can prove Dan did was report the overture to PA. Anything after 2014 was influenced by that. The incumbent Exec Dir in Toronto was under contract for another year at the time the overture was made. I agree that Jimenez and Gallardo were poor decisions made in a desperate attempt to extend the period of contention. Gausman is the straw that broke your back but it is pretty clear they are cutting payroll and rebuilding and Gausman was the price to be paid.

[panick]

3 minutes ago, AnythingO's said:

Wildcard, I don't want to get into an argument but your post above about all the poor decisions since 2014 is beneath you. Roy has told us Buck "insisted" on extending both Davis and Trumbo and Buck had a direct line to PA. I will go to my grave believing Dan wanted no part of either but was directed to do so. Mike Rogers of Rogers Communications asked his NYY exec buddy for recommendation for Toronto's Exec Dir of baseball operations. Rogers approached Dan, Dan reported to PA, PA neutered him. You say it was a result of Dan's actions but all we can prove Dan did was report the overture to PA. Anything after 2014 was influenced by that. The incumbent Exec Dir in Toronto was under contract for another year at the time the overture was made. I agree that Jimenez and Gallardo were poor decisions made in a desperate attempt to extend the period of contention. Gausman is the straw that broke your back but it is pretty clear they are cutting payroll and rebuilding and Gausman was the price to be paid.

If Duquette wasn't interested in the Toronto job, why didn't he just say 'no' to them and report that to Angelos? After Toronto's interest became public, I never read that Duquette had denied any interest in the job - only him saying that he had a job with the O's. If he had told anyone(especially Angelos) that he had no interest in the Toronto job then we wouldn't have been reading about negotiations about the compensation that Angelos wanted to let Duquette take the job. I have no problem with Duquette wanting to take another job(which I believe he did), but don't make it sound like he was not blame as to Angelos' reaction.

I have not been a Duquette supporter from the start. I still have never gotten an answer on this board to a question I have had since his hiring, so I'll ask again. If he was such a competent GM, particularly in Boston, why was he out of MLB for ten years? It seems like the reason had to be more than just a personality issue.

While I would rather see a new GM and manager engineer this rebuild, I don't think it matters who is in those positions if there is going to be decision-making interference by either the Angelos's and/or Anderson.

[24fps]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

 I agree with you that Dan working with Buck was an effective force in turning around the Orioles.  It worked well for 2012 to 2014.  But a series of bad decisions from 2014 to the present have had impacts that have cost the O's dearly.

Feb 2014;  Sign Jimenez to a four year deal that cost a first round draft choice

2014-2015 offseason:  Dan moves to entertain a bid from the Blue Jay cost him influence with the Peter Angelos.   This caused  Peter to listen to others more than Dan.

2016 : Extending Davis for 7 years.   I could see 5 years but 7 was way too much.   The owner should have been talked out of this 7 year contract  by a trusted GM but Dan was not in that position because of what he did earlier.

2016:  Signing Gallardo that cost the O's a first round draft choice.

2017:  Signing of Trumbo to a 3 year deal.   It was evident that Trumbo was not a good defensive right fielder and that he didn't hit as well as a DH prior to the signing but Dan was not in a position to persuade the owner from not making the signing.   

July 2018:  The Gausman trade was terrible.   With limited trade chips to get high value prospects back, this decision just lengthen the rebuild.   They already had 5.75m in slot money to sign Mesa.   Probably more than anyone else.

So in my opinion Dan did well for this first two years with the O's but a series of bad decisions and loss of confidence in him by the owner due to Dan's actions has made more bad happen over the last few years than good.  

Brady Anderson was named special assistant to the EVP of baseball ops in 2012 and promoted to VP for baseball ops one year later in 2013.  That was long before Duquette's dalliance with Toronto.  Brady Anderson's position and lack of accountability is a clear sign that lack of trust within the organization is a fundamental principle not a special case.  So is PA's historical taste for cronyism.  When is comes to the Orioles, the existence of a "trusted GM" with the ability to talk someone like Peter Angelos out of something he's already decided to do is about as likely as the Easter Bunny singing the national anthem.

[AnythingO's]

23 minutes ago, panick said:

If Duquette wasn't interested in the Toronto job, why didn't he just say 'no' to them and report that to Angelos? After Toronto's interest became public, I never read that Duquette had denied any interest in the job - only him saying that he had a job with the O's.

The job was a promotion, he would have had total control of baseball operations and the salary was 2-3 times his Orioles salary. Of course he would have wanted the job. My problem with this situation was a Yankee executive recommending Dan (collusion?) and the unwritten rule that you didn't stand in the way of an employee moving on if the job was a promotion. Both of those things set a precedent for the future.

[Tony-OH]

3 hours ago, Redskins Rick said:

Dan Duquette according to google, has a net worth of 1.9 million.

Assuming this is right, then he shouldn't have to worry about feeding his family.

He did survive 10 years, between GM gigs.

Personally, I am okay keeping Dan on to rebuild. He has done more good than bad, and some of his bad, was Peter.

 

A $1.9 million net worth is not really that much and Duquette is not at retirement age. He certainly will need to work again unless he decides to downsize his house, lifestyle and ability provide for his family. We know he's not going into the media! lol

[big_sparxx]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

Lol, if your argument includes is "our beloved GM was in such demand when we hired him" and "we outbid how many other teams to get him?" as knockout punches, the rest doesn't really warrant any response.

That was sarcasm... maybe I should have put a bunch of emoji's after it so you'd figure it out?

[Redskins Rick]

2 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

A $1.9 million net worth is not really that much and Duquette is not at retirement age. He certainly will need to work again unless he decides to downsize his house, lifestyle and ability provide for his family. We know he's not going into the media! lol

Tony, almost 2 million net worth seams like a pretty good chuck of change to me, you must move in higher circles than I do?

He is 60, so it in unrealistic to think he hasn't been doing things like paying down his mortgage and work on his exit plan, and he might have a 401K, which I don't believe counts towards his net worth until he draws from it, and at 59 1/2 he legally is.

I sure as heck know that I have been doing such.

Your right, I dont plan on seeing him as media talking head.

I think he gets a 2 year deal, with option for 1-2 more.

We shall see.

[TonySoprano]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

 2016 : Extending Davis for 7 years.   I could see 5 years but 7 was way too much.   The owner should have been talked out of this 7 year contract  by a trusted GM but Dan was not in that position because of what he did earlier.

This had nothing to do with the Toronto nonsense.  You're talking about the same owner that overruled Pat Gillick in 1996 and every GM since.   If Angelos cared what his GM thought, he wouldn't personally negotiate contracts like he did for Davis, and Albert Belle, Melvin Mora, and that's what I remember off the top of my head.

[Moose Milligan]

8 minutes ago, big_sparxx said:

That was sarcasm... maybe I should have put a bunch of emoji's after it so you'd figure it out?