Roch: Pitching In

[wildbillhiccup]

“I look back over my career and go, ‘OK, what made me good?’” he said. “My first three years I didn’t pitch in, learned how to pitch in and things got a lot easier. And when you talk to other guys that went through the same thing, ‘Man, I had struggles until I learned how to pitch in. I had struggles until I learned how to pitch up and change eye levels.’

Doug Brocail's career era was 4.00. When he asked "ok, what made me good?" was it meant to be ironic? 

In all seriousness his pitching techniques / strategies sound a bit dated to me. He's talking about brushing guys back which seems like an old school mentality. What he should be preaching is control, hitting your spots and painting the corners, especially when you're ahead in the count. Too many times I've seen pitchers on this staff groove one right down the middle in an 0-2 count.  And I get the idea of wanting to get ahead in the count in general, but telling the world that you'e basically teaching your pitchers to groove the first pitch right down the middle doesn't seem like the best move to me. 

All that said, this staff doesn't have the talent to execute and strategy, whether it's Brocail's or someone else's. That said, part of me is hoping that Brocail isn't still around when they start promoting some of the younger more talented pitchers. I like to see someone who's more analytical and modern in their pitching approach groom / mentor them. 

[ShaneDawg85]

4 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Groove the first pitch right down the middle?  Do you have that quote?

The way that one to Correa was grooved right down the middle?  Next one will probably hit the upper deck or the warehouse.  It was that bad and indefensible.  

[wildbillhiccup]

40 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Groove the first pitch right down the middle?  Do you have that quote?

No I don't. The point I was making is that with the talent level of our pitching staff telling them they have to throw the first pitch for a strike probably equates to them throwing one down the middle 90% of the time. They don't have the ability to locate pitches with any consistency. 

[wildbillhiccup]

3 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Telling a pitcher that it's imperative to get ahead of the hitter with a first pitch strike is something every pitching coach in the history of the game teaches. If you can't locate pitch one then you likely can't consistently locate pitch 2,3,4, or 5 and it doesn't matted who your pitching coach is.

Isn't that the point I originally made? That the current staff doesn't have the talent or ability to execute that strategy? It also doesn't make sense for a pitching coach to basically tell the league that every first pitch will be a strike. He didn't say get ahead in the count, he specifically said he wanted them to throw the first pitch for a strike. That approach / strategy might work when you're coaching your son's little league games, but these are professional baseball players. Unless they're throwing 100 mph there's no reason they shouldn't be able to locate pitches at this level. And the first pitch doesn't necessarily have to always be a strike for you to work ahead in the count. You can also get a strike without throwing a strike. 

And for this group I 100% agree, it doesn't matter who their pitching coach is, but when the pitchers that "matter" are promoted I hope we have someone better teaching them. 

 

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Doug Brocail's career era was 4.00. When he asked "ok, what made me good?" was it meant to be ironic? 

Are you suggesting that the only players who can coach are the ones who performed at the very highest levels?  I think experience shows that most of the best coaches/managers were mediocre professional players.  The peak of Leo Mazzone's playing career was 56 innings in AAA.  Did he only coach from the Costanza perspective: do exactly the opposite of me since I never pitched in the majors?

There's no massive different in approach or coaching or strategy in A ball or the majors.  They just have better players in the majors.

[wildbillhiccup]

Just now, DrungoHazewood said:

Are you suggesting that the only players who can coach are the ones who performed at the very highest levels?  I think experience shows that most of the best coaches/managers were mediocre professional players.  The peak of Leo Mazzone's playing career was 56 innings in AAA.  Did he only coach from the Costanza perspective: do exactly the opposite of me since I never pitched in the majors?

There's no massive different in approach or coaching or strategy in A ball or the majors.  They just have better players in the majors.

Brocail's quote wasn't about what he learned from his career, it was specifically about what made him good. That makes me wonder if he's somewhat delusional because he wasn't a very good pitcher. I'm not saying you have to be a good player to be a good coach, but if you think you were good (and weren't) and are teaching those same strategies that actually didn't make you successful then it seems like a real problem to me. 

I also think you're naive if you don't think there are different pitching strategies from team to team. I'm talking strategies that are tailored to each individual pitcher. One team might tell a guy to hammer fastballs in the zone and another team might tell him to throw his slider more. It's not a one hat fits all situation and I think it can really make a difference when developing younger players in particular. Especially for a team that has demonstrated the inability to consistently develop young pitchers since the 80s. 

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Brocail's quote wasn't about what he learned from his career, it was specifically about what made him good. That makes me wonder if he's somewhat delusional because he wasn't a very good pitcher. I'm not saying you have to be a good player to be a good coach, but if you think you were good (and weren't) and are teaching those same strategies that actually didn't make you successful then it seems like a real problem to me. 

Doug Brocail was probably the best player on his Little League team, the best player at his high school, the best player at Lamar Community College.  From 1997-2000 he threw over 250 major league games to a 155 ERA+.  He's currently 184th in all time games pitched in major league history.  He's in the top tiny fraction of 1% of everyone who's ever played baseball.  He's not delusional when he idly chats about what made him a good pitcher.

[LookinUp]

1 hour ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Brocail's quote wasn't about what he learned from his career, it was specifically about what made him good. That makes me wonder if he's somewhat delusional because he wasn't a very good pitcher. I'm not saying you have to be a good player to be a good coach, but if you think you were good (and weren't) and are teaching those same strategies that actually didn't make you successful then it seems like a real problem to me. 

I regularly go back to my own experience when coaching. I know what I was good at and can teach that. I also know what I wasn't good at. That's where I seek other input. It humbles you when you know your weaknesses. There's nothing suggesting he doesn't, right?

[DrungoHazewood]

5 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

I regularly go back to my own experience when coaching. I know what I was good at and can teach that. I also know what I wasn't good at. That's where I seek other input. It humbles you when you know your weaknesses. There's nothing suggesting he doesn't, right?

I see nothing in the quote "what made me good" that implies he thinks he was Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson all wrapped up in one. He was a 15-year Major League pitcher.  Of course he was good.

[LookinUp]

Right. 

[wildbillhiccup]

2 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I see nothing in the quote "what made me good" that implies he thinks he was Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson all wrapped up in one. He was a 15-year Major League pitcher.  Of course he was good.

You're connecting dots that aren't there. His quote spoke to his specific ability not to what he learned throughout his career. Is it really that much of a leap to suggest that he "might" have a big ego and actually think he is / was the benchmark for a good pitcher?  I also love how when you try to defend him you go straight for the number of games he pitched. That carries about as much weight with me as a perfect attendance award. Doug Brocail was not a good MLB pitcher. He was average at best. Maybe he's a good coach (time will tell), but as a player the only 1% he falls under is mediocrity. 

 

[wildbillhiccup]

16 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

I regularly go back to my own experience when coaching. I know what I was good at and can teach that. I also know what I wasn't good at. That's where I seek other input. It humbles you when you know your weaknesses. There's nothing suggesting he doesn't, right?

I agree with everything you said, but he didn't say "what what made me good and what didn't". Maybe he meant it, but wasn't part of his quote. 

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, wildbillhiccup said:

You're connecting dots that aren't there. His quote spoke to his specific ability not to what he learned throughout his career. Is it really that much of a leap to suggest that he "might" have a big ego and actually think he is / was the benchmark for a good pitcher?  I also love how when you try to defend him you go straight for the number of games he pitched. That carries about as much weight with me as a perfect attendance award. Doug Brocail was not a good MLB pitcher. He was average at best. Maybe he's a good coach (time will tell), but as a player the only 1% he falls under is mediocrity. 

 

Yes, it's that much of a leap, and yes Doug Brocail has earned the right to think of himself as a very good pitcher.  You don't get perfect attendance awards in MLB for being a bum.  You get them for being better than 95% of the guys you were drafted with, who were better than 99% of the guys they played with in college or high school.

[wildbillhiccup]

43 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Yes, it's that much of a leap, and yes Doug Brocail has earned the right to think of himself as a very good pitcher.  You don't get perfect attendance awards in MLB for being a bum.  You get them for being better than 95% of the guys you were drafted with, who were better than 99% of the guys they played with in college or high school.

We're not comparing him to college or high school pitchers who were never drafted. We're comparing him to other MLB pitchers. Compared to his peers (other MLB pitchers) he was most definitely not considered very good. I can't believe you're even trying to argue this. Doug Brocail was a middling relief pitcher for the majority of his career. And the only reason he probably even had a long career was because he was left handed. 

[eddie83]

11 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

We're not comparing him to college or high school pitchers who were never drafted. We're comparing him to other MLB pitchers. Compared to his peers (other MLB pitchers) he was most definitely not considered very good. I can't believe you're even trying to argue this. Doug Brocail was a middling relief pitcher for the majority of his career. And the only reason he probably even had a long career was because he was left handed. 

He was a righty.