Jump to content

Jealous


Frobby

Recommended Posts

I'm not jealous, I'm happy for the Nats and their fans.  

The Nats are a well run, first rate organization, they are what the Orioles fancy themselves as, to a certain degree.  Angelos has no one to blame but himself for the way he's run this franchise into the ground over his ownership and the amount of backbreaking work it'll take for the new regime to become relevant again.  

I feel like all of this could have been prevented.  Maybe not the Nats moving in and taking up some of his market share, but the way he's sabotaged his team and the baseball people he's hired along the way.  And it's a shame because it's not like he was afraid to spend money in the beginning.  

I don't care what you think about the wine and cheese DC crowd, that's not what this is about.  

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, atomic said:

Strasburg was able to  be a free agent long ago. He is making $38 million this season. Scherzer is making $42 million.  The Nationals were built through free agency.  Rendon was drafted 6th.  We will have a guy picked #1 overall and a guy picked #2 overall. Time to start improving the team or get a new owner/gm combo.

The Astro's pitchers were likewise acquired through trades or free agency.  

Strasburg is also able to be a free agent this year if he opts out.  He was one of the early adoptees of those clauses. 

And to say the Nationals and Astros were built through free agency is a terrible take.  They also made trades, which is the result from stockpiling talent while being so terrible, and developed their own talent.  It takes all of these approaches to make a successful time, but it results from having an established talent pipeline, which is what Mike Elias is trying to build.  

The main core of the Nationals run, from 2012 to now, were two former #1 overall picks- Harper and Strasburg.  Then you've got Rendon who was drafted sixth.  Erick Fedde was a first round pick.  Two first round picks (Giolito and Dunning) were sent to acquire Adam Eaton.  Ryan Zimmerman was the club's first, first rounder after the Expos. Juan Soto signed for $1.5m as an IFA, as did Victor Robles for $200k.  Trea Turner was acquired for Souza, who was a third round pick.  

As for the Astros, their history is well documented, but Bregman and Correa were all drafted at the top of the draft while they were tanking.  Verlander and Cole were acquired for prospects they had stockpiled.  They sent a great haul of prospects over to Arizona for Grienke.  Yuli Gurriel was a free agent from Cuba and given a hefty contract.  Jose Altuve was an undrafted free agent.  George Springer was a former first round pick.  Yordan Alvarez was an IFA acquired from the Dodgers.  Kyle Tucker was the fifth pick overall in his draft.

So as I said above, it's all about the talent pipeline.  Both teams also had low payrolls during the times they werent competing, and increased them once the core was ready to go.  This is why I've maintained that, when the Padres are finally ready to compete, their list of top 100 prospects is going to be thinned out via trades because that is what the Astros and Nationals, as well as the Cubs, have done before them.  Expect the Padres to be active trading some of those prospects this off-season to add to their current core of major leaguers.  So what the Orioles need to do now is to continue drafting at the top of the draft, continue banking funds for free agency, continue to build relationships internationally and keep adding technology so we are at the cutting edge of it.  Once that pipeline is secure, we could very well be mentioned in the same breath as the Astros, Cubs, Nationals, Yankees or Dodgers for sustained success from a talent pipeline. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'm not jealous, I'm happy for the Nats and their fans.  

The Nats are a well run, first rate organization, they are what the Orioles fancy themselves as, to a certain degree.  Angelos has no one to blame but himself for the way he's run this franchise into the ground over his ownership and the amount of backbreaking work it'll take for the new regime to become relevant again.  

I feel like all of this could have been prevented.  Maybe not the Nats moving in and taking up some of his market share, but the way he's sabotaged his team and the baseball people he's hired along the way.  And it's a shame because it's not like he was afraid to spend money in the beginning.  

I don't care what you think about the wine and cheese DC crowd, that's not what this is about.  

No question Peter hurt us so bad. The 14 years of losing and right in the middle is when the Nats were born.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'm not jealous, I'm happy for the Nats and their fans.  

The Nats are a well run, first rate organization, they are what the Orioles fancy themselves as, to a certain degree.  Angelos has no one to blame but himself for the way he's run this franchise into the ground over his ownership and the amount of backbreaking work it'll take for the new regime to become relevant again.  

I feel like all of this could have been prevented.  Maybe not the Nats moving in and taking up some of his market share, but the way he's sabotaged his team and the baseball people he's hired along the way.  And it's a shame because it's not like he was afraid to spend money in the beginning.  

I don't care what you think about the wine and cheese DC crowd, that's not what this is about.  

I think the presence of the Nats is a net positive for the O's, because the presence of a well-run team 40 miles down 95 makes it harder to coast on revenue sharing payments.  The 2012-2016 Orioles weren't great, but I think part of the reason they competed was that the Angeloses knew they'd get stomped by a good Nats organization if they kept running things like 2007.  So they freed up some resources and control.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I think the presence of the Nats is a net positive for the O's, because the presence of a well-run team 40 miles down 95 makes it harder to coast on revenue sharing payments.  The 2012-2016 Orioles weren't great, but I think part of the reason they competed was that the Angeloses knew they'd get stomped by a good Nats organization if they kept running things like 2007.  So they freed up some resources and control.

I also think that the 2012-2016 Orioles did what they did because the Yankees weren't that great during those years.  In hindsight, that becomes much more apparent the further we get away from those teams.  Maybe the 2012 team was the only one that could be considered close to great.

I agree with your overall point, they can't coast on revenue sharing.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

No question Peter hurt us so bad. The 14 years of losing and right in the middle is when the Nats were born.  

Maybe if Peter wasn't screwing the pooch for all those years and was able to field some great teams, the Nats wouldn't have encroached on his market.  I don't know how accurate that could be though, I think DC was always destined to be a 4 sport town sooner or later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Maybe if Peter wasn't screwing the pooch for all those years and was able to field some great teams, the Nats wouldn't have encroached on his market.  I don't know how accurate that could be though, I think DC was always destined to be a 4 sport town sooner or later.

I think they still get a team but if we would have remained competitive how many fans stay with us? I still think we have good support from the DC suburbs but now with basically 25 bad years and the Nats success you can undo whats been done. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'm not jealous, I'm happy for the Nats and their fans.  

The Nats are a well run, first rate organization, they are what the Orioles fancy themselves as, to a certain degree.  Angelos has no one to blame but himself for the way he's run this franchise into the ground over his ownership and the amount of backbreaking work it'll take for the new regime to become relevant again.  

I feel like all of this could have been prevented.  Maybe not the Nats moving in and taking up some of his market share, but the way he's sabotaged his team and the baseball people he's hired along the way.  And it's a shame because it's not like he was afraid to spend money in the beginning.  

I don't care what you think about the wine and cheese DC crowd, that's not what this is about.  

If Peter Angelos was more in-step with the commissioner's office at the time of relocation, I feel that they might have heeded his warnings about market share more seriously, or contemplated moving the team further into Virginia.  But because he's always been a curmudgeon towards them, it was no surprise that it happened the way that it did.  

That aside, I do agree it could've been prevented if ownership didn't meddle and supported the front office.  Hell, my Redskins are seeing the same thing happen but in a different sport, with different area teams  They were the big game in town, and everyone dropped what they were doing on Sundays.  The season ticket wait list at the start of the Snyder era was indeed a long wait.  However, he's run the team into the ground further than Peter ever could hope, and he's bleeding fans who are giving up on the team, in part because of how well the Capitals and Nationals are being run.  People would rather spend their money going to those games than they would Redskins, and I can't blame them.  Snyder's teams have been so bad recently that no one is playing ball for a new stadium, which would've been unthinkable even at the start of the Mike Shanahan timeframe.  

So yeah, I really hope that the son's have figured it out and are letting Elias do his thing.  It will take time and effort, and right now I like what I am seeing.  It seems he has full control over everything except big financial matters (which is something I would expect ownership to hold a share in) and everything I see is trending in the right direction for growth.  Again, it just takes time, and if anyone has tracked how the Astros, Cubs, Dodgers and Nationals have built themselves like this, would realize that we need to be patient.  

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I also think that the 2012-2016 Orioles did what they did because the Yankees weren't that great during those years.  In hindsight, that becomes much more apparent the further we get away from those teams.  Maybe the 2012 team was the only one that could be considered close to great.

I agree with your overall point, they can't coast on revenue sharing.  

I think of you look at the sport 2010-2015 or so was a pretty mediocre time in the game. The Giants were dominating in the postseason but they weren’t a dominant team. The Yankees started to fade. The Sox 13 title was sandwiched around last place teams. Bad teams like the Orioles, Royals and Pirates rebounded. 

Things will change again, they always do. That said the big market teams all got smart and built young powehouse teams and then you have the Astros. I know with “tanking” that impacts W/L records but these teams now are much better than that era. 

One more thing about 2012. I think many forget we had Britton and Arrieta on that team. If we only had a manger/PC combo that would have got the most out of them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, ThomasTomasz said:

If Peter Angelos was more in-step with the commissioner's office at the time of relocation, I feel that they might have heeded his warnings about market share more seriously, or contemplated moving the team further into Virginia.  But because he's always been a curmudgeon towards them, it was no surprise that it happened the way that it did.  

That aside, I do agree it could've been prevented if ownership didn't meddle and supported the front office.  Hell, my Redskins are seeing the same thing happen but in a different sport, with different area teams  They were the big game in town, and everyone dropped what they were doing on Sundays.  The season ticket wait list at the start of the Snyder era was indeed a long wait.  However, he's run the team into the ground further than Peter ever could hope, and he's bleeding fans who are giving up on the team, in part because of how well the Capitals and Nationals are being run.  People would rather spend their money going to those games than they would Redskins, and I can't blame them.  Snyder's teams have been so bad recently that no one is playing ball for a new stadium, which would've been unthinkable even at the start of the Mike Shanahan timeframe.  

So yeah, I really hope that the son's have figured it out and are letting Elias do his thing.  It will take time and effort, and right now I like what I am seeing.  It seems he has full control over everything except big financial matters (which is something I would expect ownership to hold a share in) and everything I see is trending in the right direction for growth.  Again, it just takes time, and if anyone has tracked how the Astros, Cubs, Dodgers and Nationals have built themselves like this, would realize that we need to be patient.  

Fellow Skins fan.  Angelos looks like a saint compared to Snyder.  It's getting to the point where I actually want to see the Redskins be as completely miserable as they've made me over these past few years because...well, they don't deserve anything good.  The players are fine, I believe they're generally a good group of guys...the front office and ownership can go kick rocks.  

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Maybe if Peter wasn't screwing the pooch for all those years and was able to field some great teams, the Nats wouldn't have encroached on his market.  I don't know how accurate that could be though, I think DC was always destined to be a 4 sport town sooner or later.

Baltimore is only a 2 sport town.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Maybe if Peter wasn't screwing the pooch for all those years and was able to field some great teams, the Nats wouldn't have encroached on his market.  I don't know how accurate that could be though, I think DC was always destined to be a 4 sport town sooner or later.

Five sport, but yes.  Could you imagine Oakland keeping San Francisco from having a major sports team?  Or Providence blocking a team from coming to Boston?  Or if the PCL's Hollywood Stars successfully blocked the Dodgers from happening?  

Baseball's major flaw in the 1950s and 60s was allowing teams to move almost at will, instead of helping to fix problems and better managing expansion.  Or just negotiating a way for the PCL to go major.  Then we wouldn't have had all the displaced and disgruntled fanbases all over the place, and brand new, history-less teams in a dozen cities.  There's no reason Washington was without a team for 30 years besides poor management.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

I think of you look at the sport 2010-2015 or so was a pretty mediocre time in the game. The Giants were dominating in the postseason but they weren’t a dominant team. The Yankees started to fade. The Sox 13 title was sandwiched around last place teams. Bad teams like the Orioles, Royals and Pirates rebounded. 

Things will change again, they always do. That said the big market teams all got smart and built young powehouse teams and then you have the Astros. I know with “tanking” that impacts W/L records but these teams now are much better than that era. 

One more thing about 2012. I think many forget we had Britton and Arrieta on that team. If we only had a manger/PC combo that would have got the most out of them. 

Those Giants teams were definitely not a dominant team.....they sure maximized their window though.  And Bumgarner was like the pitching version of Soto......incredibly clutch right out of the gate.  It is not easy for one guy to literally carry an entire team to a championship in a sport like baseball, but David Ortiz in 2013 and Bumgarner in 2014 did just that. 

I realized last night that 2013 was the last time the WS champion won at home. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

I think of you look at the sport 2010-2015 or so was a pretty mediocre time in the game. The Giants were dominating in the postseason but they weren’t a dominant team. The Yankees started to fade. The Sox 13 title was sandwiched around last place teams. Bad teams like the Orioles, Royals and Pirates rebounded. 

Things will change again, they always do. That said the big market teams all got smart and built young powehouse teams and then you have the Astros. I know with “tanking” that impacts W/L records but these teams now are much better than that era. 

One more thing about 2012. I think many forget we had Britton and Arrieta on that team. If we only had a manger/PC combo that would have got the most out of them. 

Arrieta sucked for the Orioles ( -.9 WAR) and Britton hadnt found his pitch yet and was still starting some games had a .8 WAR.

Buck did well, to get 82 wins out of that club.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Posts

    • The Cowboys have an owner with deep pockets. I agree 100% … There is some cap manipulation that happens. At the end of the day they have a $255 million limit they are required to operate under. The Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, etc can decide each year how much they want to add to the luxury tax fund as opposed to not being able to fit a potential move under the cap. Here are the 2024 payrolls for the NFL and MLB   https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2024/04/03/mlb-team-payrolls-2024-highest-lowest-mets/73139425007/ Highest $305 million vs $60 million  https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/_/year/2024/sort/cap_maximum_space Highest $259.5 million vs $217 million these numbers will likely get tighter once they make additions before the trade deadline.  If you can’t see the difference I’m just wasting my time. The biggest driving force in MLB beyond the ability of some to spend lavishly is the tv markets. The club controls so much of their tv revenue that it’s an unfair game. The moved that created the Orioles didn’t have much of an effect on the Senators tv market which was likely nonexistent then. Plus MLB is allowing contract manipulation like Othani’s contract. Instead of $700 divided by length 10 years, Somehow he only counts as like $46 million which is laughable. Plus they are paying $85 million in luxury tax fees in 2024.    The Orioles were a large market team when the Expos moved to DC. They could afford to spend with the Yankees, Red Sox , and Blue Jays. Could the Orioles afford to pay $85 million in luxury tax fees? Could the Yankees? I know the answer to both.  What grounds ? Who cares ? The impact was astronomical …It made it very difficult to compete in the AL East without tank a thon! It split their tv market in half. Obviously MLB papered over that long enough to get an agreement done.    They turned a large market team into 2 small/mid market teams. The Orioles and Nationals payrolls combined place them only 11th in baseball. Obviously they could afford to spend more. But it’s doubtful either will ever be top 10 for more than a season  or two as they try to hang onto a window.     
    • Thanks for the detailed explanation of all of the issues.  Sounds like a mess.
    • Yeah the amenities are pretty outdated at the yard and they seem to do nothing year over year to improve them. The touchscreens have been banged on to death to the point they barely function, so you can't accurately fill out your order at the kiosks, and they don't have a way for the people behind the counter to ring you up at many of the food places. The sound is low to non-existent in certain sections of the club level, like around 218. Seems like there should be speakers that reach there but they might have been damaged by rain, etc. and they are too lazy to fix them. If you go to a game that's even slightly busy, you will wait forever to get into the bathroom, and the sink will be an absolute mess with no soap or paper towels. It's even worse on the club level where they have one sink that's right by the door. Nearby businesses don't care, either. The Hilton parking garage reeks of decay, pot and human waste. They don't turn on the air circulation fans, even if cars are waiting for an hour and a half to exit from P3, filling up the air with carbon monoxide. They only let you enter the stadium with one 20 oz bottle of water. It's so expensive to buy a drink or water in the stadium, but with all the salty food, 20 oz of water isn't enough, especially on a hot day. Vegetarian food options are poor to none, other than things like chips, fries, hot pretzels and the occasional pizza. Vida Taco is better, but at an inconvenient location for many seats. The doors on the club level are not accessible. They're anti-accessible. Big, heavy doors you have to go through to get to/from the escalators, and big, heavy doors to get to your seats, none of them automatic (or even with the option to be automatic with a button press). Makes it hard to carry food out to your seats even if not handicapped. The furniture in the lounges on the club level seem designed to allow as few people as possible to sit down. Not great when we have so many rain delays during the season. Should put more, smaller chairs in and allow more of the club level ticket holders to have a seat while waiting for thunderstorms to pass. They keep a lot of the entrance/exit gates closed except for playoff/sellout games, which means people have to slowly "mooooo" all the way down Eutaw St to get to parking. They are too cheap to staff all the gates, so they make people exit by the warehouse, even though it would be a lot more convenient for many fans to open all the gates. Taking Light Rail would be super convenient, except that if there's at least 20k fans in attendance, it's common to have to wait 90-120 minutes to be able to board a non-full train heading toward Glen Burnie. A few trains might come by, but they are already full, or fill up fast when folks walk up to the Convention Center stop to pre-empt the folks trying to board at Camden Station. None of the garages in the area are set up to require pre-payment on entry (reservation, or give them your card / digital payment at the entrance till). If they were, emptying out the garage would be very quick, as they wouldn't need to ticket anyone on the way out: if you can't get in without paying, you can always just leave without having to stop and scan your phone or put a ticket in the machine. They shut down the Sports Legends Museum at Camden Station in 2015 because the Maryland Stadium Authority was too greedy. That place was a fun distraction if you were in the area when a game wasn't about to start, like if you show up super early on Opening Day or a playoff day. Superbook's restaurant on Eutaw is a huge downgrade from Dempsey's in terms of menu and service quality. Dempsey's used to be well-staffed, you could reserve a table online, and they had all kinds of great selection for every diet. Superbook seems like just another bar serving the same swill that the rest of the park serves, with extremely minimal and low-quality food. For that matter, most of the food at the stadium is very low quality these days. A lot of things we used to love are made to a lower standard now if they are served at all. These are gripes about the stadium and the area that haven't changed my entire adult life. Going to an O's game requires one to tolerate many small inconveniences and several major inconveniences, any number of which could easily be fixed by the relevant authorities if they gave a damn about the people who pay to come see the team play. You would think a mid-market team would be able to afford to invest in the fan experience. You would think the city and partnering organizations like garages, the Stadium Authority and MTA would at least try to do their part to make the experience enjoyable and free of kinks. You would think they would put some thought into handling the "growing pains" of the fanbase due to recent renewed interest after the dark years. Instead, all we get is the same indifference and the same annoyances year in and year out. The whole area is overdue for a revamp. Not sure if $600 mil will get it done, but at least it's a start. Hopefully they can start to patch up some of the many holes in the fan experience. If you're not going to invest in Burnes, at least make it so paying customers have an easier, more enjoyable time getting to/from the stadium and having some food while we're there.
    • Elias has only been in rebuild mode with the O's so there's not much to speculate on there.  Houston, where he spent his formative years, doesn't seem to like to be on the hook for more than a couple of big long-term contracts at any given time.  I can see that as being Elias' choice as well, albeit with a lower overall cost - Houston runs a big payroll.  But it's all guesswork.  I really don't know. If Elias takes the 2025 payroll to $150 million it will creep up to $200 million or so by 2028 just from keeping the core together.  That's where I start to wonder about sustainability due to market size, economic forces, etc., etc., etc... If it were up to me, I would add a couple of free agents this offseason even if the contracts were longer than ideal and be conservative about extensions elsewhere until the prospects establish themselves a little better.  I think there's a competitive opportunity that the team is already into that's worth exploiting. I think ownership is very happy to have Elias on board and they're not inclined to force him to do anything.  I also think Rubenstein's demonstrated business prowess is great enough to assume that he has had plenty enough time to come to a mutual understanding with Elias as to goals.
    • We need a RH O’hearn…in addition to Westburg. At least 3 batters that will push up the pitch count and cause damage in the top 5 of the lineup.
    • Boy,  that Jackson Merrill is a good young player that is playing his best ball down the season stretch and in the playoffs.   He's only 21.  I guess some young guys are able to play up to the pressure.   Who could have guessed that?
    • I’m aware.   You are arguing something im Not.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...