MLB.com's Five Best 2nd-Basemen in O's History

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

WAR is a cumulative stat.  If player A produces 20% more WAR over 50% more games played WAR isn't going to help you.

I agree.  

[Can_of_corn]

Third base list is out.

https://www.mlb.com/orioles/news/best-third-basemen-in-orioles-history

Cal for some reason being ineligible put a surprise name at #5.

[DrungoHazewood]

33 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

It's an interesting question, a bit frivolous.  I mean, you can look at WAR WAR WAR and get your answer that way.  WAR is nice and everything but it's always seemingly used as the trump card for any baseball debate.  Like, "...the player I just named has more WAR than anyone you're bringing to the table so....I win."

But if you had a Game 7 to play.  Or if you had a stretch in August and September and were in the playoff hunt...who would you rather have?  

I never saw Grich.  For me, it's Alomar, though.  Yeah, he didn't play here all that long but if we're talking about the BEST, it's him. 

But there's some point where you have to say he just wasn't here long enough.  You know who has the 2nd-highest OPS+ in modern Oriole history?  Reggie Jackson, at 155, trailing only Frank.  But nobody would list Reggie as one of the best Oriole outfielders of all time.  Few people who lived through the 1960s through the 80s would list Reggie as the Oriole they'd want for a pennant chase and a playoff run.

That's kind of how I feel about Alomar.  He was here for three years, one cut short by the lockout, and the last felt like he was kind of mailing it in (his worst offensive season from 22-33).  I'd take him over Rich Dauer, but to me Schoop feels more like an Oriole even if he was demonstrably, objectively worse than Alomar per PA.  And Grich certainly does.  Roberts, too.  Although I don't know if sticking it out with the 2000s Orioles is more of a badge of courage or stupidity.

Brian Roberts' 2005 season is as good as any Alomar ever put up.  The difference, of course, is that Roberts rarely got to that level, while Alomar had a bunch of really good seasons.

[Moose Milligan]

4 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

But there's some point where you have to say he just wasn't here long enough.  You know who has the 2nd-highest OPS+ in modern Oriole history?  Reggie Jackson, at 155, trailing only Frank.  But nobody would list Reggie as one of the best Oriole outfielders of all time.  Few people who lived through the 1960s through the 80s would list Reggie as the Oriole they'd want for a pennant chase and a playoff run.

That's kind of how I feel about Alomar.  He was here for three years, one cut short by the lockout, and the last felt like he was kind of mailing it in (his worst offensive season from 22-33).  I'd take him over Rich Dauer, but to me Schoop feels more like an Oriole even if he was demonstrably, objectively worse than Alomar per PA.  And Grich certainly does.  Roberts, too.  Although I don't know if sticking it out with the 2000s Orioles is more of a badge of courage or stupidity.

Brian Roberts' 2005 season is as good as any Alomar ever put up.  The difference, of course, is that Roberts rarely got to that level, while Alomar had a bunch of really good seasons.

I agree that Reggie wasn't here long enough.  And I agree that sticking it out for the 2000s Orioles is a badge of courage and stupidity.  To be courageous, sometimes I think you gotta be a little stupid.

Schoop also feels more like an Orioles cause he came up here.  Alomar was always going to be a hired gun.  It's not a surprise that he left as quickly as he came.  I don't really hold that against him.

[Moose Milligan]

21 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Third base list is out.

https://www.mlb.com/orioles/news/best-third-basemen-in-orioles-history

Cal for some reason being ineligible put a surprise name at #5.

Craig Worthington?

[DrungoHazewood]

17 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Third base list is out.

https://www.mlb.com/orioles/news/best-third-basemen-in-orioles-history

Cal for some reason being ineligible put a surprise name at #5.

There are only eight players in modern Oriole history who played 250 or more games at third.  And Batista is still not in the top five, or shouldn't be.  Leo Gomez was better in exactly the same number of ABs (1554). 

Doug DeCinces should be third on the list.  Mora spent four years as a utility player where he didn't spend a single game at third, and his last four years he was just average.  DeCinces was the man, and the Doug DeCinces Fan Club newsletter I wrote and tacked to my treehouse wall proves it.

[DrungoHazewood]

4 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Craig Worthington?

Tony Batista.  Idiosyncratic choice. 

Every time I hear his name I also hear the Fukuoka fans chanting "Home Run, Home Run, Ba-Tis-Ta" over and over.

[Moose Milligan]

6 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Tony Batista.  Idiosyncratic choice. 

Every time I hear his name I also hear the Fukuoka fans chanting "Home Run, Home Run, Ba-Tis-Ta" over and over.

Yeah, I made my comment before checking the link.  Tony Batista is an interesting choice.

I liked Leo Gomez.  I thought he was a pretty good player.  And a hell of a nice guy, always signing autographs.  I think I've got 5 of his cards autographed.  

@Can_of_corn you can't have Cal eligible for 3rd if he's going to be SS.  I mean, I suppose you could since it's Brooks and then everyone else.  But if you're trying to keep these guys identified with the positions they're most noted for, Cal isn't at 3rd.  

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Yeah, I made my comment before checking the link.  Tony Batista is an interesting choice.

I liked Leo Gomez.  I thought he was a pretty good player.  And a hell of a nice guy, always signing autographs.  I think I've got 5 of his cards autographed.  

@Can_of_corn you can't have Cal eligible for 3rd if he's going to be SS.  I mean, I suppose you could since it's Brooks and then everyone else.  But if you're trying to keep these guys identified with the positions they're most noted for, Cal isn't at 3rd.  

Cal played more seasons at third for the O's than Batista did.

I'd feel the same way about Smoltz on the pitching front for the Braves.

[DrungoHazewood]

6 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I liked Leo Gomez.  I thought he was a pretty good player.  And a hell of a nice guy, always signing autographs.  I think I've got 5 of his cards autographed. 

Gomez went to the Cubs for a year, where he wasn't bad. Then to the Chunichi Dragons, where he was pretty great.  .966 OPS in '97, and in '99 he hit .297/.389/.570 with 36 homers and 109 RBI.  Hit really well for six years in Japan, although was hurt a lot the last two.  Over 150 homers, giving him 309 as a pro.  Almost every year he was the best hitter on the Dragons, out-hitting guys like Kosuke Fukudome (who, by the way, is still active with Hanshin, or was last year at 42).

[DrungoHazewood]

7 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Cal played more seasons at third for the O's than Batista did.

I'd feel the same way about Smoltz on the pitching front for the Braves.

But when we get the old timers league together to play these games he can't be in two places at once.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

13 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

 

I liked Leo Gomez.  I thought he was a pretty good player.  And a hell of a nice guy, always signing autographs.  I think I've got 5 of his cards autographed.  

 

Peter Angelos nods in agreement. 

I probably would have put Gomez at fifth over Batista. Batista to me was the 'good bad' baseball player. Hit some home runs and knocked 100+ RBIs in his better years, but overall he was a below average player. 

[LA2]

4 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

I agree that Reggie wasn't here long enough.  And I agree that sticking it out for the 2000s Orioles is a badge of courage and stupidity.  To be courageous, sometimes I think you gotta be a little stupid.

Schoop also feels more like an Orioles cause he came up here.  Alomar was always going to be a hired gun.  It's not a surprise that he left as quickly as he came.  I don't really hold that against him.

Since it's a ranking of O's 2nd basemen and coming up through the farm system makes a player seem more deeply Oriole, it's interesting that out of the top six picks (Grich, Roberts, Alomar, Schoop, Johnson, Dauer), only Alomar came in from another system as an already established player. WIth all the rest, there was an extended period of expectations that was part of enjoying following their career. Grich certainly fulfilled fans' hopes, but eventually left, while Dauer, though a reliable fielder, never hit like he did in the minors. Alomar came from afar, but certainly dazzled us and, unlike Reggie, didn't act like he was too big for Baltimore.

[LA2]

4 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Craig Worthington?

He's at the end of their "Honorable Mentions": "Craig Worthington placed fourth in AL Rookie of the Year Award voting in 1989." And Drungo doesn't think much of him. Craig had one good season and was gone from the major leagues faster than anyone had expected after his International League MVP season, for sure.

 

[Moose Milligan]

13 minutes ago, LA2 said:

He's at the end of their "Honorable Mentions": "Craig Worthington placed fourth in AL Rookie of the Year Award voting in 1989." And Drungo doesn't think much of him. Craig had one good season and was gone from the major leagues faster than anyone had expected after his International League MVP season, for sure.

 

Yeah, I'd posted that before clicking the link.  Me mentioning Craig Worthington was kind of a joke.  

3B might be the biggest gap between 1st place and 2nd place in terms of these positional rankings....It's really Brooks way far out in front and then...everyone else.