Losing Loewen?

[BRob51]

I was the "mastermind" behind loe-owned.

well played, sir.

[laxtonto]

Here's my questions though:

If there wasn't some sort of gentleman agreement in place, would the O's have put him on waivers? Of course they would have, they really had no choice in the matter. So its a moot point on whether or not he would be put on waivers.

So now instead lets look at the second part of having a gentleman's agreement on the matter. So the Orioles are upset about a player not keeping their part in an illicit agreement between the two parties?

The O's have no one to be angry at besides themselves. If you try to play outside the rules, you have no right to be upset when someone else out foxes you.

Yes, its upsetting that Loewen is no longer a part of the organization, but this was a situation that Loewen picked an organization that he stands a chance at eventually making MLB roster. In the next 2 or 3 years, do you see a spot that Loewen could have on the 25 man roster?

The other thing I am curious about is were the O's holding Loewen "hostage" with his progression to the OF with their gentleman's agreement? I would not put it past any club to use this as a type of leverage.

"I am sorry, but we aren't supporting your move back to hitting because we are going to have to release you after the season is over. Oh, you are thinking to resigning a minor league deal with us... OK..."

This type if leverage works both ways. Some people aren't bothered by this type of approach others are. The real question is were there any hints, comments or question down this avenue

Good Luck kid, the flame out rate is extremely high in what you are trying to accomplish.

[TakebackOPACY]

Here's my questions though:

If there wasn't some sort of gentleman agreement in place, would the O's have put him on waivers? Of course they would have, they really had no choice in the matter. So its a moot point on whether or not he would be put on waivers.

So now instead lets look at the second part of having a gentleman's agreement on the matter. So the Orioles are upset about a player not keeping their part in an illicit agreement between the two parties?

The O's have no one to be angry at besides themselves. If you try to play outside the rules, you have no right to be upset when someone else out foxes you.

Yes, its upsetting that Loewen is no longer a part of the organization, but this was a situation that Loewen picked an organization that he stands a chance at eventually making MLB roster. In the next 2 or 3 years, do you see a spot that Loewen could have on the 25 man roster?

The other thing I am curious about is were the O's holding Loewen "hostage" with his progression to the OF with their gentleman's agreement? I would not put it past any club to use this as a type of leverage.

"I am sorry, but we aren't supporting your move back to hitting because we are going to have to release you after the season is over. Oh, you are thinking to resigning a minor league deal with us... OK..."

This type if leverage works both ways. Some people aren't bothered by this type of approach others are. The real question is were there any hints, comments or question down this avenue

Good Luck kid, the flame out rate is extremely high in what you are trying to accomplish.

Ken Singleton said during a broadcast in May, already, that there were rumblings within the Oriole organization that they may try to convert Loewen. So it seems like the organization was in support of the decision.

The quotes from this article from MLB.com in July make it seem pretty clear that everyone was on the same page.

By the way, that same article makes it pretty clear to me that the Orioles organization was prepared to do everything they could within the rules, but couldn't avoid making Loewen available:

"The good news," added Andy MacPhail, the team's president of baseball operations, "is that we have a player here that, as an amateur, [was] very much a hitting prospect as well, and he has assured me that he can still hit and wants to hit. So the club is prepared to embark on that path with him, and once this season is over, we will start career No. 2 for Adam Loewen, which will be in the outfield somewhere in the Baltimore Orioles system, provided we can sort through a number of obstacles and technicalities that we have to agree upon to sort of get this career re-started."

MacPhail was referring to a bunch of contractual language that will have to be figured out for Loewen to remain in the organization. The Orioles signed the phenom to a Major League contract out of the Draft, and he's already exhausted all his options. Now, the two sides need to figure out a way to get him back in the Minors without switching organizations.

"Eventually, you're going to have to sever that existing contract and do a new one," said MacPhail. "Those are all things that create obstacles that [agent Scott Sanderson] and their side was well aware of going into this as we were. We just felt like, 'We're with you and we think this is a good idea. Let's sort of figure out a timetable and let's figure out up front what the obstacles are so we don't get to a certain part of the road and we all go, 'Oh my gosh, we didn't know this.'"

[Migrant Redbird]

I believe the primary difference is the "gentleman's agreement" that we thought we had in place with Loewen.

This is the crux of the issue as far as I'm concerned.

Almost 9 years ago, I bought the "commuter car" I'm still driving, over 190,000 miles later. At the time Chrysler had just announced an end-of-year (in April) incentive program of 5 year financing at zero interest with nothing down and I was leaning towards buying a '99 Neon anyhow, so I took advantage of the deal. I went to a dealer in Laurel and another dealer on Highway 140 and told each salesman that I was shopping for the best price and I'd buy from whichever dealer gave me the best deal.

I liked the salesman in Laurel a lot better and I didn't like the "tag team" approach the salesman and his manager on Highway 140 pulled on me, but I didn't intend to get any servicing done at either place, so I still intended to go with the best price.

After the guy on 140 gave me their "best and final" offer, I went to the Laurel salesman and he matched it, even though he was bringing in a car from the East Shore and 140 still had a couple suitable cars in their inventory. I told the Laurel I would buy the car from him -- price being equal and salesman being more trustworthy -- and I called the guy on 140 and told him my decision. About an hour later, I had a call from the owner on 140 who offered me a new price which was over a thousand dollars better. I told him "thanks, but no thanks", because I'd already told the guy in Laurel that I was buying from him, even though I hadn't actually signed a purchase contract yet.

I told my Laurel salesman what had happened and he told me he would understand if I took the better price, but he couldn't match it because of having to bring the car in from another dealer. I said that was OK, because my word was worth more to me than a thousand dollars. However, he did give me about half a dozen of his business cards with coupons written on the back for free oil changes -- I have no idea if that was in gratitude for me keeping my word or just a standard practice with that dealer.

The deal with Loewen is similar in my mind, although the circumstances are certainly different. A gentleman's agreement used to be as good as a signed contract -- at least, it was among gentlemen.

I think the O's probably could have handled the timing off the deal better. They should have worked out an agreement with Loewen BEFORE they gave him his release. It was the time spent haggling over with Loewen's agent over contract details which gave Toronto and others an opportunity to move in. After the O's had an agreement in principle, they could have then run Loewen through waivers. Once he cleared waivers, they could have handed him his release papers, a pen, and his new contract to sign. Neither Toronto nor any other team could have contacted Loewen until he was a free agent and careful planning could have avoided him being a free agent for more than a few seconds.

[ejf1025]

switching to a hitter, right?

I'm actually surprised how much run this is getting...and comparing to Mussina?

[fansince71]

Schmuck summed it up perfectly IMO.

The news that Loewen has signed with the Blue Jays is a little bit of a shock -- and it probably could be interpreted as a slap in the face by the O's front office -- but it's not exactly a setback for the Orioles organization. In fact, you can make the case that Loewen did the O's a favor by jumping ship, since the odds of him actually becoming a serviceable position player at the major league level remain quite long.

Chances are, he would have just been taking up space and getting a disproportionate amount of attention in the player development system, perhaps even getting institutional deference over some more legitimate prospects because of the amount of money the Orioles already have invested in him.

[byrdz]

This is the crux of the issue as far as I'm concerned.

Almost 9 years ago, I bought the "commuter car" I'm still driving, over 190,000 miles later. At the time Chrysler had just announced an end-of-year (in April) incentive program of 5 year financing at zero interest with nothing down and I was leaning towards buying a '99 Neon anyhow, so I took advantage of the deal. I went to a dealer in Laurel and another dealer on Highway 140 and told each salesman that I was shopping for the best price and I'd buy from whichever dealer gave me the best deal.

I liked the salesman in Laurel a lot better and I didn't like the "tag team" approach the salesman and his manager on Highway 140 pulled on me, but I didn't intend to get any servicing done at either place, so I still intended to go with the best price.

After the guy on 140 gave me their "best and final" offer, I went to the Laurel salesman and he matched it, even though he was bringing in a car from the East Shore and 140 still had a couple suitable cars in their inventory. I told the Laurel I would buy the car from him -- price being equal and salesman being more trustworthy -- and I called the guy on 140 and told him my decision. About an hour later, I had a call from the owner on 140 who offered me a new price which was over a thousand dollars better. I told him "thanks, but no thanks", because I'd already told the guy in Laurel that I was buying from him, even though I hadn't actually signed a purchase contract yet.

I told my Laurel salesman what had happened and he told me he would understand if I took the better price, but he couldn't match it because of having to bring the car in from another dealer. I said that was OK, because my word was worth more to me than a thousand dollars. However, he did give me about half a dozen of his business cards with coupons written on the back for free oil changes -- I have no idea if that was in gratitude for me keeping my word or just a standard practice with that dealer.

The deal with Loewen is similar in my mind, although the circumstances are certainly different. A gentleman's agreement used to be as good as a signed contract -- at least, it was among gentlemen.

I think the O's probably could have handled the timing off the deal better. They should have worked out an agreement with Loewen BEFORE they gave him his release. It was the time spent haggling over with Loewen's agent over contract details which gave Toronto and others an opportunity to move in. After the O's had an agreement in principle, they could have then run Loewen through waivers. Once he cleared waivers, they could have handed him his release papers, a pen, and his new contract to sign. Neither Toronto nor any other team could have contacted Loewen until he was a free agent and careful planning could have avoided him being a free agent for more than a few seconds.

Great post, this is exactly the issue at hand, but unfortunately this sort of gentleman like conduct is disappearing these days.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Never underestimate a Baltimoron when it comes to seeing a slight against them.

[Cokeman]

switching to a hitter, right?

I'm actually surprised how much run this is getting...and comparing to Mussina?

I'm actually surprised that you started another Loewen thread to say you were actually surprised how much run this is getting...

[laxtonto]

The problem that is an apples to oranges comparison. Think if it this way, instead of it being a car, think of it as employment.

If you are a college student that had interned at one company since high school, and are just about to graduate college. The firm you have been working at needs you to sever their current contract with you so they can formally offer you a job offer once you graduate. While discussing things with one of your fellow students at the local watering hole you find out that you can get the same entry level job at a different company that is closer to home and you have a better chance of moving up, which is your true goal.

Which do you pick at this point?

One place you have been with for an extended period of time and the other offers a better chance to achieve your goals.

The real problem with all of this is that the details weren't worked out on the new deal before the first deal was severed. That's the mistake here.

[bandy75]

I told my Laurel salesman what had happened and he told me he would understand if I took the better price, but he couldn't match it because of having to bring the car in from another dealer. I said that was OK, because my word was worth more to me than a thousand dollars. However, he did give me about half a dozen of his business cards with coupons written on the back for free oil changes -- I have no idea if that was in gratitude for me keeping my word or just a standard practice with that dealer.

Ok, but what if we're not talking $1000, what if we're talking $100,000 or $1,000,000. You said your word is worth more than that, which implies there is a price to it. That is not a slam, my word would have a price as well. Perhaps the opportunity to play for his favorite team was Adam's price. I can't fault him for that. I will miss him though, hope he makes it back!

[glenn__davis]

Never underestimate a Baltimoron when it comes to seeing a slight against them.

How thin is the air up on that high horse you're riding tonight?

It basically all comes down to whether or not the "gentleman's agreement" was reached, IMO. If so, then no matter how many warm fuzzies Adam gets for going home, it's a pretty lousy thing for him to do, and people have every right to be upset about it.

If not, if the Orioles just released him and assumed no one else would have interest in him, then it's Adam's choice to do what he wants.

[Icterus galbula]

By the way, the tags for this thread are pretty great. :laughlol:

I'm responsible for "Karma Police" and "Soap opera-eh?"

[BaltimoreTerp]

How thin is the air up on that high horse you're riding tonight?

It basically all comes down to whether or not the "gentleman's agreement" was reached, IMO. If so, then no matter how many warm fuzzies Adam gets for going home, it's a pretty lousy thing for him to do, and people have every right to be upset about it.

If not, if the Orioles just released him and assumed no one else would have interest in him, then it's Adam's choice to do what he wants.

Better on top of the high horse then underneath it's rear.

[ChaosLex]

Better on top of the high horse then underneath it's rear.

No one can say with a 100% certainty, but it's HEAVILY speculated that a handshake agreement was in place. IF (I can't emphasis that enough) that's the case, you're not bothered at all by Loewen's actions?