This is the kind of thing that drives me crazy

[Tony-OH]

I find it interesting that the Phillies took the training wheels off Seth Johnson and Moises Chace and they've flourished. The Orioles never allowed Johnson to throw more than 69 pitches in an outing. With the Phillies he threw 68, 76, 84, 98, 82 before getting promoted to the big leagues.

They did the same with Chace who threw a season high 77 pitches in April with the Orioles, but since June was neve allowed to pitch more than 59 pitches in a start. With the Phillies is thrown 65, 86, 89, 89, 81. In his three Double-A starts with pitch counts all over 80, he's held batters to a .137/.214/.216/.430 with 29K and just 5 walks in 15.2 innings.

Maybe, just maybe, keeping pitchers on tight pitch counts and not being aggressive with promotions when they're doing well is not the best way to produce major league pitching?

 

 

[Frobby]

Baumeister with another excellent outing for the Rays’ A+ affiliate, 1 run on 1 hit, 9 K’s in 5 IP last night.  With the A+ season ending this weekend, I wonder if the Rays will promote him to AA to squeeze in a final start next week before AA closes down.  

Edited September 6 by Frobby

[Frobby]

11 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I find it interesting that the Phillies took the training wheels off Seth Johnson and Moises Chace and they've flourished. The Orioles never allowed Johnson to throw more than 69 pitches in an outing. With the Phillies he threw 68, 76, 84, 98, 82 before getting promoted to the big leagues.

They did the same with Chace who threw a season high 77 pitches in April with the Orioles, but since June was neve allowed to pitch more than 59 pitches in a start. With the Phillies is thrown 65, 86, 89, 89, 81. In his three Double-A starts with pitch counts all over 80, he's held batters to a .137/.214/.216/.430 with 29K and just 5 walks in 15.2 innings.

Maybe, just maybe, keeping pitchers on tight pitch counts and not being aggressive with promotions when they're doing well is not the best way to produce major league pitching?

I share your concern, and mentioned the IP/pitch count thing in an earlier post in this thread.  I do note that the Rays are being as cautious with Baumeister as the Orioles were.  He has yet to throw 70 pitches for Bowling Green.

[RZNJ]

40 minutes ago, webbrick2010 said:

Or leave a gap of three cars in front of them in a LH turn lane resulting in the people behind them not even being able to get in the LH turn lane

Or, you’re waiting two minutes for the LH turn signal, the arrow goes green, and the first car is daydreaming or texting, cases a 3-5 second delay and you don’t make it through.

[Grt 2BA FL Gator]

21 hours ago, Allan Bryant said:

I also hope we can retain Elias for years more . Having said that , my questions regarding him is………does he have ability to recognize and question his own strategies and adapt to them ?   Can he handle success and make adjustments like increasing payroll , make moves designed for playoffs , how to improve pitching development for drafted pitchers , etc etc ?   Does he know a rebuilding team and a playoff contender are two different things ? 

I agree with the first two questions and agree that this offseason will be big for the middle one. The Kimbrel move has been a failure as far as FA and we really haven’t dabbled much there yet.  

This offseason we’ve got a new owner and any governors that existed before (which we know with Angelos family there always was) should be off.

I love the hitters we’ve developed and the overall talent that has come through. And if we want to leverage our strength and trade from it, I’m good with that too. We just need more pitching all the way around and hope that Elias is reflective and creative on how to get that done. 

[RZNJ]

6 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I share your concern, and mentioned the IP/pitch count thing in an earlier post in this thread.  I do note that the Rays are being as cautious with Baumeister as the Orioles were.  He has yet to throw 70 pitches for Bowling Green.

True, but after reaching 5 IP just once all year with Aberdeen, he went 6 and 7, respectively, his last two times.

[Frobby]

15 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

True, but after reaching 5 IP just once all year with Aberdeen, he went 6 and 7, respectively, his last two times.

He’s been very pitch-efficient there compared to how he was at Aberdeen, as I also noted in my prior post.

[Tony-OH]

25 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

True, but after reaching 5 IP just once all year with Aberdeen, he went 6 and 7, respectively, his last two times.

Right, he's just been more pitch efficient with the Rays.

I just find it interesting that their new teams have found ways to make all of them better initially. 

Some believe the Elias regime have some kind of magic fairy dust that makes players better when they come into this organization because of the success of relievers like Perez, Cano, Webb, and Coulombe, but when you see their young pitching prospects getting selected by teams in trades, and then they have better success right away, it does make you wonder.

Johnson was almost 26-years old and wasn't allowed to throw 70 pitches in a game and only made it to 5 innings in two of his starts with the Orioles. Why? 

I can kinda understand 18-21 year olds being under fairly strict pitching counts, but even the college pitchers are getting put under pretty strict limits when they were throwing 90+ pitches a game in college.

I just don't get why the Orioles have taken this route when it's shown no ability to limit injuries or produce major league pitching effectively.

I just want to interview Elias and it would probably go like this:

Elias: You want answers?

Me: I want the truth!

Elias: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men who throw baseballs. Who's gonna do it? You? You, @Frobby? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Johnson and you curse our development staff. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know, that Johnson's development with us, while tragic, probably saved other young pitchers arms. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves those arms! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me protecting those arms. You need me protecting those arms. We use words like "innings limit", "low pitch counts", "4 inning starts". We use these words as the backbone of a baseball life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline on that Orioles Hangout. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very organization that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you", and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a baseball, and try to throw more than 70 pitches in an outing once a week. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

Me: A little dramatic there Mike. I just think you should let your pitchers throw more pitches and innings once they hit 21 years old. Sheesh! 

[OriolesUpAndDowns]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

Right, he's just been more pitch efficient with the Rays.

I just find it interesting that their new teams have found ways to make all of them better initially. 

Some believe the Elias regime have some kind of magic fairy dust that makes players better when they come into this organization because of the success of relievers like Perez, Cano, Webb, and Coulombe, but when you see their young pitching prospects getting selected by teams in trades, and then they have better success right away, it does make you wonder.

Johnson was almost 26-years old and wasn't allowed to throw 70 pitches in a game and only made it to 5 innings in two of his starts with the Orioles. Why? 

I can kinda understand 18-21 year olds being under fairly strict pitching counts, but even the college pitchers are getting put under pretty strict limits when they were throwing 90+ pitches a game in college.

I just don't get why the Orioles have taken this route when it's shown no ability to limit injuries or produce major league pitching effectively.

I just want to interview Elias and it would probably go like this:

Elias: You want answers?

Me: I want the truth!

Elias: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men who throw baseballs. Who's gonna do it? You? You, @Frobby? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Johnson and you curse our development staff. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know, that Johnson's development with us, while tragic, probably saved other young pitchers arms. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves those arms! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me protecting those arms. You need me protecting those arms. We use words like "innings limit", "low pitch counts", "4 inning starts". We use these words as the backbone of a baseball life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline on that Orioles Hangout. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very organization that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you", and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a baseball, and try to throw more than 70 pitches in an outing once a week. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

Me: A little dramatic there Mike. I just think you should let your pitchers throw more pitches and innings once they hit 21 years old. Sheesh! 

Slow clap.  Well done

[RZNJ]

BTW, Baumeister pitched yesterday.   5 IP, 1 H, 1 BB, 9 K.     Last 3 starts combined.

18 IP

4 H

2 BB

28 K

Chace pitches tonight.     @Tony-OH     would these guys have cracked our top ten if they had done this for us?

Edited September 6 by RZNJ

[Tony-OH]

11 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

BTW, Baumeister pitched yesterday.   5 IP, 1 H, 1 BB, 9 K.     Last 3 starts combined.

18 IP

4 H

2 BB

28 K

Chace pitches tonight.     @Tony-OH     would these guys have cracked our top ten if they had done this for us?

Baumeister was already on the cusp of the top 10 when he was traded so yes. Seeing that Chace had the ability to pitch into 80+ pitches effectively at the AA level would have shot him up the list for sure. 

[Warehouse]

 

[Frobby]

I think I’m going to be ill.  

[HowAboutThat]

Everyone wants to find hidden gems in other systems, and acquire them for nothing.

We got McDermott and Povich.

They got Johnson and Baumeister.

if this reveals any problems in the system, or in the process, then we can only hope that changes are made.

 

 

[RZNJ]

10 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think I’m going to be ill.  

At least Baumeister went in the Eflin trade but that’s not the description I heard of Baumeister when we had him.  First, his mechanics changed since the beginning of the year.  Not sure when.   He used to go way down to where he looked off balance when he went back.    The fastball was sitting low 90’s.  Not sure he was even touching 95.   Now the stuff is better and he’s got much better control.   Again, these changes could have started while he was still in our system and the Rays are just getting the fruits of our labor or the other possibility which I don’t even want to think about.