McPhail: Bullpen to require attention this offseason

[bgtimber75]

I could not disagree more, this team is miles away from being an actual contender. The types of players it would take to turn this franchise around aren't going to be the type of guys you can get w/o giving up draft picks or spending a ridiculous amount of money.

How anyone could look at not only this years record, but there trending record, and disagree with this is beyond me. This is not a good team. There is no power, no pitching and few prospects. It's not a good team.

[wildcard]

I could not disagree more, this team is miles away from being an actual contender. The types of players it would take to turn this franchise around aren't going to be the type of guys you can get w/o giving up draft picks or spending a ridiculous amount of money.

Filling gaps until kids are ready is not even an option at this point. Haven't we done that the last two seasons. Besides that what impact "kids" would they be holding down the fort for? Rowell, Snyder, Erbe? By the time they get here half our roster will be gone. Wieters is the only prospect in our system that has impact potential and he hasn't even picked up a wood back yet. Reimold looks to be the only position player close to making the jump, but I don't see him as much of a superstar prospect like Markakis, more along the lines of a good major league player, but not a guy you build the franchise around.

This team already has the star players. What it lacks is those good players that you just talked about. Roberts, Markakis, Tejada, Bedard are stars. Guthrie has shown the stuff to become one, though there are doubters out there.

If Reimold can hold down LF come July will a 750 OPS and become an 800 OPS guy in the future he should have a that chance.

Moore is a #1 draft choice. From what I have seen so far he looks to have decent range and hands at third. He has some power and a good sense of how to drive in an RBI. He is below average in getting consistent hits. I think he gets a chance in ST, but is more likely to need half a season at AAA. The PCL is not the International League in my opinion.

Penn, Olson, Liz, Hoey are all guys that should progress to the majors sometime next year and should have a bright future. Some of them should be good players you can count on. Next year we find out who is ready to step forward and when they are ready. The all have options that can be used.

There may be a surprise among Leicester, Burres, and Fernando Cabrera. Maybe one of them can turn into a solid pitcher that contributes.

They are all young enough that they might need time before they step up. They may need time to grew. A few veterans could help to start the season. They do not have to be stars. Let's see what is out there that could help.

[osfan83]

This team already has the star players. What it lacks is those good players that you just talked about. Roberts, Markakis, Tejada, Bedard are stars. Guthrie has shown the stuff to become one, though there are doubters out there.

If Reimold can hold down LF come July will a 750 OPS and become an 800 OPS guy in the future he should have a that chance.

Moore is a #1 draft choice. From what I have seen so far he looks to have decent range and hands at third. He has some power and a good sense of how to drive in an RBI. He is below average in getting consistent hits. I think he gets a chance in ST, but is more likely to need half a season at AAA. The PCL is not the International League in my opinion.

Penn, Olson, Liz, Hoey are all guys that should progress to the majors sometime next year and should have a bright future. Some of them should be good players you can count on. Next year we find out who is ready to step forward and when they are ready. The all have options that can be used.

There may be a surprise among Leicester, Burres, and Fernando Cabrera. Maybe one of them can turn into a solid pitcher that contributes.

They are all young enough that they might need time before they step up. They may need time to grew. A few veterans could help to start the season. They do not have to be stars. Let's see what is out there that could help.

Wow! It's not even the off season yet and we are already seeing posts like this! I think you throw around the word STARS a bit more than I would. Roberts, maybe when playing his best. Tejada, was a star, maybe again in the future. Markakis, solid, but not a star. Bedard, yes a star. Guthrie, no, not a star.

So we have a real ace, solid 2b and SS with star potential and a solid RF. That does not make a contender. Lets hope the O's FINALLY learn you have to pick one, win now, or build. To win now we need a BIG TIME LF, and 1B, with another solid starter, maybe a catching upgrade, stronger bench, and a much better pen. That's alot to do in one off season.

Or

Trade Tejada, Roberts (try an extention first), Millar, Hernandez, Cabrerra, Bedard (try to get an extention first), and Mora (if he agrees).

[DrungoHazewood]

Moore is a #1 draft choice. From what I have seen so far he looks to have decent range and hands at third. He has some power and a good sense of how to drive in an RBI. He is below average in getting consistent hits. I think he gets a chance in ST, but is more likely to need half a season at AAA. The PCL is not the International League in my opinion.

No it's not. It has different teams in different cities and tends to be farther west.

If you mean that it's not as difficult as the IL, I think you're wrong.

Penn, Olson, Liz, Hoey are all guys that should progress to the majors sometime next year and should have a bright future. Some of them should be good players you can count on. Next year we find out who is ready to step forward and when they are ready. The all have options that can be used.

There may be a surprise among Leicester, Burres, and Fernando Cabrera. Maybe one of them can turn into a solid pitcher that contributes.

They are all young enough that they might need time before they step up. They may need time to grew. A few veterans could help to start the season. They do not have to be stars. Let's see what is out there that could help.

So how is this collection of four stars and a bunch of decent prospects and journeymen going to evolve into a winning franchise? The Orioles have no hitting prospects who're locks to be even decent major league players in the next two years. None. Scott Moore is a nice addition, but he's probably a .250-.325-450 guy at his peak, not a star to build around. Reimold is about as healthy as JD Drew. Rowell and Snyder (especially) will be lucky to be in Baltimore by the end of 2009.

It's a little better on the pitching side, but with an aging core I find it almost fanciful to suggest that hole-plugging is going to do anything but delay the inevitable. Much of the team is gone after 2009 in any case, and there's not nearly enough talent in the pipeline to compete by then.

If they don't trade at least several of Tejada, Mora, Bedard, Cabrera, Roberts, Huff, or Hernandez I don't see how the team will do anything more than tread water for two years. And there's little worse than a 70-win team treading water.

[Frobby]

This team already has the star players.

No we don't.

Boston has 4 players who have a higher OPS than anyone on the Orioles. New York has 3. Toronto has 3. Even Tampa has 2.

We can expect Markakis to continue to improve and that's about it.

To be competitive in the AL East, your top 3 players had better average around .900 OPS, not .825 like the Orioles.

[Flosman]

No we don't.

Boston has 4 players who have a higher OPS than anyone on the Orioles. New York has 3. Toronto has 3. Even Tampa has 2.

We can expect Markakis to continue to improve and that's about it.

To be competitive in the AL East, your top 3 players had better average around .900 OPS, not .825 like the Orioles.

I do not completely agree with this. You could compete with no 900 OPS players IMO, but then you would have no margin for having any sub par players and you better have the best pitching in the AL.

We don't have enough of anything to compete so it is really not an issue for the O's. This is just a bad team in almost every area. If helthy the SP could be good but other than that the rest of the team is just not good enough. Barring a miracle I don't see the O's doing enough to be much better than 500 next season either.

[wildcard]

Wow! It's not even the off season yet and we are already seeing posts like this! I think you throw around the word STARS a bit more than I would. Roberts, maybe when playing his best. Tejada, was a star, maybe again in the future. Markakis, solid, but not a star. Bedard, yes a star. Guthrie, no, not a star.

So we have a real ace, solid 2b and SS with star potential and a solid RF. That does not make a contender. Lets hope the O's FINALLY learn you have to pick one, win now, or build. To win now we need a BIG TIME LF, and 1B, with another solid starter, maybe a catching upgrade, stronger bench, and a much better pen. That's alot to do in one off season.

Or

Trade Tejada, Roberts (try an extention first), Millar, Hernandez, Cabrerra, Bedard (try to get an extention first), and Mora (if he agrees).

I agree with alot on what you posted except I do consider Markakis a star. I think he has arrived.

My point is that the O's have a many star as many contending teams. Look at Boston. Ortiz, Manny, Beckett and Papelbon. That about it. Schilling used to be. Dice-K is supposed to be, but is he preforming like one.

I think we are saying the same thing about needing to upgrade the rest on the players. The question is how you do it. I don't think you trade your best players to do it. I doubt the McPhail thinks that is what you do either.

[wildcard]

No it's not. It has different teams in different cities and tends to be farther west.

If you mean that it's not as difficult as the IL, I think you're wrong.

That's interesting. I have always thought that it was an excepted fact that the PCL had smaller parks and thinner air that caused hitters to hit better and pitcher to have more problems. I think of the PCL as a hitters league and the International League as a fairer league which more closely reflects a smaller jump to the majors.

[DrungoHazewood]

That's interesting. I have always thought that it was an excepted fact that the PCL had smaller parks and thinner air that caused hitters to hit better and pitcher to have more problems. I think of the PCL as a hitters league and the International League as a fairer league which more closely reflects a smaller jump to the majors.

You're confusing the shape or color of a league's totals with the difficulty of a league. It's no harder to play baseball in the IL or the PCL. It's just more challenging to correctly interpret the statistical record in a league or ballpark that has a different run environment than that of a neutral Major League park.

[DrungoHazewood]

My point is that the O's have a many star as many contending teams. Look at Boston. Ortiz, Manny, Beckett and Papelbon. That about it. Schilling used to be. Dice-K is supposed to be, but is he preforming like one.

You can't be serious. Maybe... maybe you have an argument if the definition of "star" is "recognizable name". Even then I think it's a stretch.

Frobby already pointed out the Red Sox comp. We're just not even close. Ortiz and Manny are miles better than any Oriole hitter. Beckett is a pretty good performance match for Bedard, although Bedard has been better this year. Papelbon is better than any reliever the O's have had in years. Matsuzaka is as valuable as any Oriole pitcher not named Bedard. Kevin Youkilis would be the best hitter on the O's. Dustin Pedroia is about 95% the player Brian Roberts is and he's 23. Mike Lowell is a better hitter than any Oriole.

You could make similar comps to the Yankees. The Indians have at least four hitters better than any Oriole. The Tigers have five. Even on the pitching side the O's only good comps are all on the DL. There are literally Eastern League teams with more star-level talent than the O's current bullpen.

The Orioles need about four or six star-level talents, like 115+ OPS+s or ERA+s before they begin to approch the levels of the real contenders.

[wildcard]

No we don't.

Boston has 4 players who have a higher OPS than anyone on the Orioles. New York has 3. Toronto has 3. Even Tampa has 2.

We can expect Markakis to continue to improve and that's about it.

To be competitive in the AL East, your top 3 players had better average around .900 OPS, not .825 like the Orioles.

The Yankees are the only team that year in year out has three 900 guys. Boston has two Manny and Ortiz. Lowell is not a 900 guy year in year out.

I agree that Boston in Fenway have an edge on offense. An their two big guys are great. Pitching has away been their problem. They also have to pitch in that park. Beckett is star quality. So is Papelbon.

So you are saying that their star player are better then our star player. Sure. I agree. That does not mean the Miggy, Roberts, Bedard and Markakis are not stars.

[osfan83]

The Yankees are the only team that year in year out has three 900 guys. Boston has two Manny and Ortiz. Lowell is not a 900 guy year in year out.

I agree that Boston in Fenway have an edge on offense. An their two big guys are great. Pitching has away been their problem. They also have to pitch in that park. Beckett is star quality. So is Papelbon.

So you are saying that their star player are better then our star player. Sure. I agree. That does not mean the Miggy, Roberts, Bedard and Markakis are not stars.

Again it comes back to your definition of star. IMO this year Bedard was the only star on the O's.

[DrungoHazewood]

So you are saying that their star player are better then our star player. Sure. I agree. That does not mean the Miggy, Roberts, Bedard and Markakis are not stars.

So... what was the point? You said the O's have as many stars as the contenders. But only if you stretch the definition of star to include a bunch of Orioles who aren't as good as the best half-dozen players on the Sox or Yanks.

The only point I see here is that the O's entire roster is at least a few notches behind the contenders.

[nadecir]

So... what was the point? You said the O's have as many stars as the contenders. But only if you stretch the definition of star to include a bunch of Orioles who aren't as good as the best half-dozen players on the Sox or Yanks.

The only point I see here is that the O's entire roster is at least a few notches behind the contenders.

The depressing thought is that the Red Sox young players are much better than our young players too.

Wouldn't the Orioles' future look brighter if we had the likes of Pedroia, Papelbon, Ellsbury, and Buckholz? And there are several really good players under 30 that are signed with Boston for a while, like Youkilis, Beckett and Dice-K. Couple this core with the Red Sox's willingness to spend for star talent, and it spells bad news for the Orioles for a while.

[wildcard]

You can't be serious. Maybe... maybe you have an argument if the definition of "star" is "recognizable name". Even then I think it's a stretch.

Frobby already pointed out the Red Sox comp. We're just not even close. Ortiz and Manny are miles better than any Oriole hitter. Beckett is a pretty good performance match for Bedard, although Bedard has been better this year. Papelbon is better than any reliever the O's have had in years. Matsuzaka is as valuable as any Oriole pitcher not named Bedard. Kevin Youkilis would be the best hitter on the O's. Dustin Pedroia is about 95% the player Brian Roberts is and he's 23. Mike Lowell is a better hitter than any Oriole.

You could make similar comps to the Yankees. The Indians have at least four hitters better than any Oriole. The Tigers have five. Even on the pitching side the O's only good comps are all on the DL. There are literally Eastern League teams with more star-level talent than the O's current bullpen.

The Orioles need about four or six star-level talents, like 115+ OPS+s or ERA+s before they begin to approch the levels of the real contenders.

If you really believe this, what the heck are you doing here? Why no just join the Red Sox Nation and be done with it?

Your prespective is way different from mine. I look at Dice-k and I see a guy that is not even as good a Guthrie, in a home park he can't pitch in. 5.10 ERA in Fenway, 5.37 ERA in the 2nd half. You are believing the hype. Did you see this guy against us when they were just here. He is cooked.

Lowell is better then any O's hitter. In Fenway for this year maybe. Lowell is an ok hitter having a good year. He is hitting over 1.000 in Fenway this year and 777 OPS on the road. And he is a FA and Boston has not even decided if they want him back. He is not a star level player.

We have no idea what Pedroia is yet. He had a 804 Ops at AAA and He is 828 now. Maybe he is where he is going to be. 898 at home and 756 on the road. Fenway again. And he has what? 6 steals. But according to you he is 95% of Roberts.

Take your smoke and blow it to the Red Sox Nation. Yes they are better right now and deeper. But don't tell me all this crap about how great all their players are. Its just smoke and Fenway.

The O's are who the O's are not because they don't have star players. It's because they have made very bad decisions. Decisions that cost Flanagan his job. Melvin's contract is too long and so is Gibbons. They added Bako, Payton, Williamson, Baez and Bell. They refuse to get a decent leftfielder and instead keep two utility infielders. That and injuries is why the O's are where the O's are.

It's McPhail's job to make better decisions.

But don't tell me how great all these Red Sox players. Dice-k =5.00 ERA in the 2nd half. Lowell and Pedroia are nothing special on the road.